Did I miss a thread about Amtrak returning Service to Florida?

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Larry H.

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I came here looking to see what people knew about the article yesterday on yahoo that talked about amtrak running test trains on the route from New Orleans to Florida, and that there was a plan to continue the City of New Orleans on to Florida soon? I know many people for years have wanted this an wrote about it. Is there a thread somewhere about these recent events which took me by complete surprise..

Larry
 
There was a thread recently concerning the test train running on the SL-East, but it will not be a continuation of the SL. There was talk before about it being a continuation of the CONO, but more than likely, it would be a stand-alone train. However without a state subsidy from LA, MS, AL and FL (since the route is under 750 miles), the chances are between slim and none of it running!
 
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There was a thread recently concerning the test train running on the SL-East, but it will not be a continuation of the SL. There was talk before about it being a continuation of the CONO, but more than likely, it would be a stand-alone train. However without a state subsidy from LA, MS, AL and FL (since the route is under 750 miles), the chances are between slim and none of it running!
Which is yet more evidence the entire '750 mile' rule is a mistaken concept; You will pretty much never get four or more states to agree on anything, and it is unreasonable that one holdout can derail the entire route (it is not so much a constitutional issue as it is an impractical one). The entire route from Chicago to Miami, however, is over 750 miles, which clearly makes any continuation of the City of New Orleans a federal responsibility. I fully realize it would go over like a lead balloon in some (passenger rail critics) circles, but it should be up to Amtrak to submit the funding request as part of its annual budget. The decision would then be up to Congress.
 
There was a thread recently concerning the test train running on the SL-East, but it will not be a continuation of the SL. There was talk before about it being a continuation of the CONO, but more than likely, it would be a stand-alone train. However without a state subsidy from LA, MS, AL and FL (since the route is under 750 miles), the chances are between slim and none of it running!
Actually, New Orleans to Orlando is a smidgen over 750 miles. :)
And no, there is absolutely no plan to send that train to Miami.
 
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I came here looking to see what people knew about the article yesterday on yahoo that talked about amtrak running test trains on the route from New Orleans to Florida, and that there was a plan to continue the City of New Orleans on to Florida soon? I know many people for years have wanted this an wrote about it. Is there a thread somewhere about these recent events which took me by complete surprise..
There have been several threads on the subject, including this one which continued on the recent Amtrak report and the inspection train: News on the daily Sunset (and possible SL East...).

I would not count on Amtrak starting service from NOL to Orlando any time "soon". Lots of hurdles remain, starting with funding and state & political support. Even if extending the CONO is the option chosen, the stations have to be returned to passenger service which means made ADA compliant, and Amtrak & CSX have to work out an agreement and schedule. Given the typical pace of passenger rail initiatives in the US, wouldn't be surprised if it took 5 to 8 years to extend the CONO. Heck, Amtrak might have to do an EIS study just to extend the CONO because there would be federal funding involved.

Amtrak press release on the inspection train: AMTRAK AND SOUTHERN RAIL COMMISSION TO HOST AN INSPECTION TRAIN ACROSS GULF COAST.
 
One bad thing about a continuation of the CONO is if the CONO gets to NOL 6 hours late, the train can not depart NOL headed east until after the train from CHI arrives into NOL. This is part of what occurred with the SL coming from LAX, and why it was annulled in NOL many times. (They many times bustituted east of NOL.)
 
There was a thread recently concerning the test train running on the SL-East, but it will not be a continuation of the SL. There was talk before about it being a continuation of the CONO, but more than likely, it would be a stand-alone train. However without a state subsidy from LA, MS, AL and FL (since the route is under 750 miles), the chances are between slim and none of it running!
Which is yet more evidence the entire '750 mile' rule is a mistaken concept; You will pretty much never get four or more states to agree on anything, and it is unreasonable that one holdout can derail the entire route (it is not so much a constitutional issue as it is an impractical one). The entire route from Chicago to Miami, however, is over 750 miles, which clearly makes any continuation of the City of New Orleans a federal responsibility. I fully realize it would go over like a lead balloon in some (passenger rail critics) circles, but it should be up to Amtrak to submit the funding request as part of its annual budget. The decision would then be up to Congress.
People tend to forget that the 750 mile rule really only applies to the existing LD trains. Amtrak is under no obligation to fund any new routes, and is actually only under special circumstances allowed to do so (though NOLA-Orlando would probably be in that category as it is technically only suspended).

The survey that was done on the route actually did not recommend a stand alone train, but an extension of the CONO. But still it will not be funded under the 750 mile rule, Amtrak has made clear. The states or cities along the route will have to chip in.

The only consequece of it being longer than 750 miles is that it doesn't fall under the PRIIA rules for state supported routes, and therefore it doesn't have to follow the funding formula of the other state supported corridors. What Amtrak seems to have said is that it will be content if the states will subsidy the expected loss on avoidable costs, without contributing to the overhead like the other state supported routes have to.

So it is really not that much money which is needed. But it has to be there. If the states don't step up with a small subsidy as well as the needed capital costs, this train will go nowhere.
 
There was a thread recently concerning the test train running on the SL-East, but it will not be a continuation of the SL. There was talk before about it being a continuation of the CONO, but more than likely, it would be a stand-alone train. However without a state subsidy from LA, MS, AL and FL (since the route is under 750 miles), the chances are between slim and none of it running!
Which is yet more evidence the entire '750 mile' rule is a mistaken concept; You will pretty much never get four or more states to agree on anything, and it is unreasonable that one holdout can derail the entire route (it is not so much a constitutional issue as it is an impractical one). The entire route from Chicago to Miami, however, is over 750 miles, which clearly makes any continuation of the City of New Orleans a federal responsibility. I fully realize it would go over like a lead balloon in some (passenger rail critics) circles, but it should be up to Amtrak to submit the funding request as part of its annual budget. The decision would then be up to Congress.
Amtrak is under no obligation to fund any new routes, and is actually only under special circumstances allowed to do so
Source please?
 
I'm short on a source (and trying to dig up the correct old threads here would be a pain) but in addition to the "750 mile rule" PRIIA also constrained the system to existing endpoints as of that time [1]. Now there's been some debate as to the exact form that restriction takes...in their PIPs, Amtrak seriously examined, outside of Congressionally-specified new route studies, the following:

-A re-route of the Star via Charlotte (which would involve significant "new" trackage);

-An FEC-operating section of a Silver train (which would be a new section and operate over new track but not have a new endpoint);

-Re-instituting the Desert Wind in conjunction with the Zephyr (much the same as the FEC section above);

-Adding through cars from the Capitol Limited to the Pennsylvanian (much the same as above, but also tinkering with a "state" train);

-Sending the Cardinal to STL and/or sending a section to STL (which would involve a new or added endpoint); and

-Breaking several trains into two day trains (with forced overnights at an middle location, something which would technically have added mid-route endpoints to the trains in question [2]).

In none of these cases were PRIIA restrictions indicated as a problem. The language in the bill did, I believe, only refer to existing endpoints (ORL qualifying per the Sunset Limited only being "suspended"), but per the above examinations it seems clear that there's some flexibility: Re-routing existing trains between existing endpoints is clearly kosher, and adding sections with different endpoints as long as they're "bolted onto" existing trains seems allowable.

With all of that being said, the present fiscal environment seems likely to can this. If Amtrak were running $30m ahead of budget this year they might have trouble arguing the point but they're well behind budget instead. The one way I could see something happening here if funding proves to be hard to come by is if Wicker succeeds in loading a "thou shalt run the bloody train" amendment (think Byrd and the Cardinal, though this might have some conditionals attached to it) onto a funding bill in the future.

[1] BOS, NYP, WAS, LOR, SAV, SFA, ORL, and MIA on the East Coast; CHI, NOL, and possibly SAS in the Midwest; and SEA, PDX, EMY, and LAX on the West Coast

[2] ATL on the Crescent and BUF on the Lake Shore
 
This St. Louis possibility has always seemed to me to be a worthy thing.. We desperately need direct service south and east out of here. The long trip north to Chicago and then long layovers are not conducive to building ridership. A connection at the right times to the City of New Orleans with an extension to Florida could be a real boom in ridership south out of St. Louis. There used to be a dinky one car connection to the CNO for some time but they stopped running it. A Cardinal or other eastern connection would speed and encourage travel to the east coast as well. Amtrak's biggest problem to me is its total lack of realistic connections for people in the rest of the country.. All the major cities on the so called Eastern Corridor are served and served well. Its one reason they are successful. The idea of providing a similar service to various connecting points in mid america is a time that is long overdue..
 
I don't think anyone expects Amtrak to do anything on its own on the Gulf Coast Service. It looks like, the funding, if it comes through will be a combination of local and federal funding targeted just for the service coordinated through the SRC. Amtrak will be the most likely outfit that will be contracted to run it. This logistic setup indicates more towards a Regional service rather than a CONO extension. The latter will create a nightmare of its own about how the costs and revenues will be shared. This is the sad state of affairs. Hopefully a better solution will be found under a new leadership at Amtrak.
 
The best part of extending the City of New Orleans is that Amtrak's study estimated a mere $5 or $10 million operating loss, depending on what's in the package. That's peanuts.

Of course, Amtrak would benefit from (in effect) adding a new route, gaining connections to its other trains at Orlando, Jacksonville, and New Orleans, as well as adding 140,000 more riders to its yearly total. And politics: the route might make a few new friends in Congress, or at least get a few haters to 'shut up, please'. Amtrak is offering a deal, as explained above. The sponsors would only need to cover the additional avoidable costs, and not share in the fixed overhead of Beech Grove, etc.

Senator Wicker, Repub. of Mississippi, backed by a couple of House members, seem to think they can slip a small appropriation thru Congress. Again, it's just $5 or $10 million needed. Governor Bryant, Repub of Mississippi, was also aboard the "Inspection Train" giving full endorsement to the plan. (btw, Larry, you can type in "Amtrak Inspection Train" on YouTube to see the impressive turnouts along the route that greeted the politicians on board.)

Gov Bryant, meanwhile, promised that none of his state's 'general funds' would go for subsidies. Of course, most states have big bucks stashed out of sight of the voters -- the Port Authority in NY & NJ, a Turnpike Authority in some, an Economic Development body in others, "dedicated taxes", etc. I don't expect the lousy $5 or $10 million to slow down the plan.

The need for station upgrades shouldn't delay it. If the City of Dogpatch doesn't have a station finished yet, well, the train doesn't have to stop there. Almost all of these places will be smart and be ready when the train starts to roll.

Back in 2009 Amtrak did a study of this corridor. It pointed out problems with the Sunset coming from far-off L.A. and so forth. In the end it said Amtrak didn't have any equipment to spare, and would need $80 million to acquire some. Nothing happened.

In the report released at the end of 2015, Amtrak said it would have enuff equipment to run three consists extending the CONO by time it's ready to roll. Presumably the new bi-levels for California and the Midwest would free up enuff Superliners.

Now to get that needed equipment, the question is, "Nippon Sharyu, where are you?"
 
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Megabus has filled a gap with direct service from New Orleans to Orlando with stops in Mobile and Tallahassee. Not quite the same as a train,obviously,but it is a direct route from Florida and Alabama to connect with the Sunset in New Orleans. The Megabus stop is at Union Station..Of course,I would love to see the Sunset extended East,but as other posters have stated it could be many years away, if ever..
 
One more time ... The Sunset is not getting extended east. If anything gets extended it will be the CONO.
Yes but that is probably a good thing, the possible customers from Chicago, perhaps St. Louis if the connection were restored Plus the major cities along the route already could prove to be a real boost to train travel. Who wants to go to Chicago from anywhere south in order to go to Florida. Its never made sense and it never will.
 
I'm short on a source (and trying to dig up the correct old threads here would be a pain) but in addition to the "750 mile rule" PRIIA also constrained the system to existing endpoints as of that time [1]. Now there's been some debate as to the exact form that restriction takes...in their PIPs, Amtrak seriously examined, outside of Congressionally-specified new route studies, the following:

-A re-route of the Star via Charlotte (which would involve significant "new" trackage);

-An FEC-operating section of a Silver train (which would be a new section and operate over new track but not have a new endpoint);

-Re-instituting the Desert Wind in conjunction with the Zephyr (much the same as the FEC section above);

-Adding through cars from the Capitol Limited to the Pennsylvanian (much the same as above, but also tinkering with a "state" train);

-Sending the Cardinal to STL and/or sending a section to STL (which would involve a new or added endpoint); and

-Breaking several trains into two day trains (with forced overnights at an middle location, something which would technically have added mid-route endpoints to the trains in question [2]).

In none of these cases were PRIIA restrictions indicated as a problem. The language in the bill did, I believe, only refer to existing endpoints (ORL qualifying per the Sunset Limited only being "suspended"), but per the above examinations it seems clear that there's some flexibility: Re-routing existing trains between existing endpoints is clearly kosher, and adding sections with different endpoints as long as they're "bolted onto" existing trains seems allowable.

With all of that being said, the present fiscal environment seems likely to can this. If Amtrak were running $30m ahead of budget this year they might have trouble arguing the point but they're well behind budget instead. The one way I could see something happening here if funding proves to be hard to come by is if Wicker succeeds in loading a "thou shalt run the bloody train" amendment (think Byrd and the Cardinal, though this might have some conditionals attached to it) onto a funding bill in the future.

[1] BOS, NYP, WAS, LOR, SAV, SFA, ORL, and MIA on the East Coast; CHI, NOL, and possibly SAS in the Midwest; and SEA, PDX, EMY, and LAX on the West Coast

[2] ATL on the Crescent and BUF on the Lake Shore
Thanks for the summary. I wasn't trying to pick on trainviews, but I remember far too many posters (and a few supposedly professional journalists) who went on about how Amtrak was prohibited from launching any new services following the Penn Station loan. That was never true then (congressional approval was required, but since Congress controls the purse strings, that's pretty much a given anyway) and its not true now ("existing endpoints" isn't nearly so restrictive as "only in special circumstances"). Indeed, using existing endpoints (depending on the interpretation) Amtrak could launch a revived Floridian, Desert Wind, Pioneer, North Coast Hiawatha, and Broadway Limited! In fact, I can't immediately think of any proposed, studied, or even dreamed of long-distance routes which wouldn't involve an existing endpoint.

I don't think anyone expects Amtrak to do anything on its own on the Gulf Coast Service. It looks like, the funding, if it comes through will be a combination of local and federal funding targeted just for the service coordinated through the SRC. Amtrak will be the most likely outfit that will be contracted to run it. This logistic setup indicates more towards a Regional service rather than a CONO extension. The latter will create a nightmare of its own about how the costs and revenues will be shared. This is the sad state of affairs. Hopefully a better solution will be found under a new leadership at Amtrak.
I certainly expect nothing from Amtrak, at least right now under President Boardman, but I would argue that as the National Railroad Passenger Corporation, Amtrak should be advocating new and expanded services (in an economically responsible manner) at all levels - not just in the Northeast Corridor.

Senator Wicker, Repub. of Mississippi, backed by a couple of House members, seem to think they can slip a small appropriation thru Congress. Again, it's just $5 or $10 million needed.
I would agree with the Senator. The subsidy is small enough that a compelling case can be made that operating such a train is a prudent business move for Amtrak (they do want Amtrak to act more like a business, after all, and businesses pursue new customers).

Yup it is a good thing.

Unfortunately some people refuse to acknowledge that reality and keep going on and on about Sunset extension.
Perhaps the first Sunset Limited back to Florida could be accompanied by ACS-64 #666. I'm sure CSX is dying to electrify the route. :) :) :)
 
Yup it is a good thing.

Unfortunately some people refuse to acknowledge that reality and keep going on and on about Sunset extension.
Well, be fair, it's been referred to as "Sunset East" for what, a decade now? Old habits die hard...
 
Yup it is a good thing.

Unfortunately some people refuse to acknowledge that reality and keep going on and on about Sunset extension.
Well, be fair, it's been referred to as "Sunset East" for what, a decade now? Old habits die hard...
Coverage of the "Inspection Train" from New Orleans to Jacksonville included a mention of possibly calling the CONO extension "the Sunset Express". You'd think there'd be better names -- the Sunset Ltd has headed west toward the Pacific for 100 years or so. And the proposed schedule is very much a local, stopping in every county along the way at least once. But I'll leave that to the locals on the Gulf Coast.
 
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Yup, and the Sunset Limited had never headed east of New Orleans for any extended period of time before Amtrak invented that service.

The pre-Amtrak name of the New Orleans to Jacksonville train was The Gulf Wind. Amtrak had a train called the Gulf Breeze, which was presumably a little slower with a little shorter run than the Wind. :)

If they must include Sun in vain, it should rightfully be called the Sunrise Express acknowledging its heading eastwards, not Sunset anything. :D

Edit: Corrected the name of the L&N pre-Amtrak train.
 
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If they must include Sun in vain, it should rightfully be called the Sunrise Express acknowledging its heading eastwards, not Sunset anything. :D
Agreed, though it's not an express stopping every 15 feet. Maybe the Sunrise Unlimited? ;)
 
The Gulf Breeze is a good name. It was used by Amtrak in the early 90's for a short lived connection with the Crescent in Birmingham. It went on the former L&N via Montgomery to Mobile. Part of that route (Mobile - Flomaton, AL) would be used by a New Orleans to Jax train. The pre_Amtrak train was the Gulf Wind - an overnight train with a classic sleeper-observation car. One of them is still in charter service.
 
Maybe they'll hold a contest to choose a name. Probably close to the opening runs, to get free publicity.

Isn't that how it worked for the Missouri River Runner service, St Louis-Kansas City?
 
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