Discussion of Indian Railways and travel by it

[west point]

Robert: Get a large magnifying Glass and read the speifications listed.on your charger. Mine say input 100 -277 volts. 50 - 60 Hz.. Now you will need to get an adapter plug to insert into receptacle in the countries that you visit. You can plug your regular North American plug into the adapter. Best you reseaarch now to find if more than 1 adapter is needed. JIS should be able to help. Have no idea where mine are.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So I think I’m good if I take household (Bangladesh/India) 230v 50Hz and step down to 12v 50Hz and invert to 12VDC?

Here in the switch mode era all of my mobile devices have worked worldwide with a simple plug converter. It's also becoming more common to see USB power ports included in hotel rooms. Most planes now have universal power and USB ports as well. It's a far cry from the days of bringing step down transformers for hotels and funky cigarette lighter adapters on planes.

My take, if you can find a place to ride an elephant, DO SO! It is a once in a lifetime experience!

Not for the elephant. Whatever I would gain from riding an elephant would be gained in equal measure from watching it do normal elephant things. No need for anything to be poked, prodded, or chain-whipped into action for my amusement.

 

[Ziv]

Here in the switch mode era all of my mobile devices have worked worldwide with a simple plug converter. It's also becoming more common to see USB power ports included in hotel rooms. Most planes now have universal power and USB ports as well. It's a far cry from the days of bringing step down transformers for hotels and funky cigarette lighter adapters on planes.


Not for the elephant. Whatever I would gain from riding an elephant would be gained in equal measure from watching it do normal elephant things. No need for anything to be poked, prodded, or chain-whipped into action for my amusement.

I hear you devil's, and if that were the case, I would agree with you. But the evidence of the "breaking" of elephants over the past 10 or 15 years is really spotty. The elephant owners claim, and it appears they are honest about it, to have changed to a "gentling" process more akin to how we "gentle" a horse instead of breaking it the way we used to. The only thing I do not like about the whole riding elephants is the lack of comfort for both the rider and the elephant when it comes to howdahs. Riding the elephant on his/her neck moves the weight onto the front legs and is a lot more comfortable for both parties.
My cousins and I used to "race" pigs when I was 6 or 7 and riding an elephant feels a lot like riding the worlds biggest pig, bristles, rough skin and all. As long as the pigs got fed they appeared to be happy to be 'racing pigs' for a day. The only drawback was the race went exactly where the pigs wanted to go, not where my cousins and I had planned.
But back to elephants. I think that the people that are most against riding elephants see how it used to be and do not want to support that. But it seems like they are opposing activities that do not happen very often at all any more. There are bad actors, so I guess I could see people not wanting to interact with elephants at all so as to avoid supporting the bad actors, but it makes no sense to pay to bathe elephants that were probably raised the same way as the elephants that are being ridden. Either do not interact with elephants at all or stop telling people to not ride them. You can not have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Rambling Robert]

I hear you devil's, and if that were the case, I would agree with you. But the evidence of the "breaking" of elephants over the past 10 or 15 years is really spotty. The elephant owners claim, and it appears they are honest about it, to have changed to a "gentling" process more akin to how we "gentle" a horse instead of breaking it the way we used to. The only thing I do not like about the whole riding elephants is the lack of comfort for both the rider and the elephant when it comes to howdahs. Riding the elephant on his/her neck moves the weight onto the front legs and is a lot more comfortable for both parties.
My cousins and I used to "race" pigs when I was 6 or 7 and riding an elephant feels a lot like riding the worlds biggest pig, bristles, rough skin and all. As long as the pigs got fed they appeared to be happy to be 'racing pigs' for a day. The only drawback was the race went exactly where the pigs wanted to go, not where my cousins and I had planned.
But back to elephants. I think that the people that are most against riding elephants see how it used to be and do not want to support that. But it seems like they are opposing activities that do not happen very often at all any more. There are bad actors, so I guess I could see people not wanting to interact with elephants at all so as to avoid supporting the bad actors, but it makes no sense to pay to bathe elephants that were probably raised the same way as the elephants that are being ridden. Either do not interact with elephants at all or stop telling people to not ride them. You can not have your cake and eat it too.

I agree on both counts. But instead of riding an elephant - even if convinced no harm (by my weight vs. my Dad’s was 145#) - I would prefer to see an elephant’s reaction to music— maybe play the harmonica - ha ha. [note: bring harmonicas]

 

[Rambling Robert]

Robert: Get a large magnifying Glass and read the speifications listed.on your charger. Mine say input 100 -277 volts. 50 - 60 Hz.. Now you will need to get an adapter plug to insert into receptacle in the countries that you visit. You can plug your regular North American plug into the adapter. Best you reseaarch now to find if more than 1 adapter is needed. JIS should be able to help. Have no idea where mine are.

Thank you WP - my two Anker 511 20w chargers have similar input specs to yours. I have a 5w (unknown) and will check that too. I have no wall adapters … yet.

I plan on getting Anker battery banks.

 

[Ziv]

I agree on both counts. But instead of riding an elephant - even if convinced no harm (by my weight vs. my Dad’s was 145#) - I would prefer to see an elephant’s reaction to music— maybe play the harmonica - ha ha. [note: bring harmonicas]

Animals respond to music in surprising ways. The more intelligent the animal, the more interesting the response. Sharing music with an elephant would be interesting indeed.
My dog did not care for rock, country or jazz but would come over and sit in front of the speakers for a string quartet or a trance video. And then fall asleep. So there is that.

 

[George Harris]

24 car trais? What are the various lengths of the IR passenger cars? Cannot ever imagine Amtrak trains even close to that number. Are these long train operating on essentially very shallow rails with no grades to speak of,? No stations in US capable of that length. Too far to walk as well. Reminds me of Jasper open platform.

Newer LHB coaches are 78 feet long, older ICF coaches about 72 feet. So a little shorter than coaches in the US but not by much.

Not really unreasonable. Amtrak may not go for trains so long, but in the past there were numerous passenger trains that got up to 20 cars, possibly a couple more at times. The standard passenger car length was 85 feet over couplers, add 4 E unit diesels on the front end, at about 75 feet each and you have an overall length of passenger train of 2,000 feet. Up until the early 1960's this was very common on the Illinois Central's City of New Orleans and in the winter, their every other day City of Miami. I say this from first hand knowledge. Generally on weekdays the CNO would be on the order 14 to 16 cars, with a couple more on weekends, but on holiday weekends it would definitively be 20 cars plus north of Memphis. There were portions of the ICRR main in Illinois that allowed 100 mph for passenger trains, and rest assured that these trains got to that speed on these sections. There were numerous other premier long distance trains that also got to these lengths. Not all were on low grade lines, either. While the CofM was all reserved Chicago to Miami, the CNO was all coach and not reserved seating. It did Chicago to New Orleans in 16 1/2 hours, including adding southbound and removing northbound coaches for St. Louis at Carbondale IL.

As to number of employees, comparison between IR and Amtrak is not valid, as the IR numbers include freight also. A more apt comparison would be to the US system in total, freight plus passenger plus commuter agencies. I have no idea what that number is. Up to about 1950 the US system in total had about 1,000,000 employees, but I am certain that number is much lower currently.

 

[jis]

As to number of employees, comparison between IR and Amtrak is not valid, as the IR numbers include freight also. A more apt comparison would be to the US system in total, freight plus passenger plus commuter agencies. I have no idea what that number is. Up to about 1950 the US system in total had about 1,000,000 employees, but I am certain that number is much lower currently.

I agree. Furthermore, the Indian Railways employees number may even include the workforce employed in IR owned manufacturing facilities like the locomotive and coach manufacturing facilities. I am not sure about this since I have not recently seen a breakdown by units, but it is something to keep in mind.

 

[jis]

Most have heard about Howrah Station of Kolkata, one of the largest stations in India. Directly under this station, to be precise under the space that separates Terminal I and Terminal II and partly under Platforms 16 and 17 is being built India's deepest and possibly largest Metro station. Here is an article about it in the Times of India:

Kolkata: Another station comes up below Howrah station | Kolkata News - Times of India

KOLKATA: A Howrah station below another Howrah station, which promises to be the largest among all metro stations in the country, will be completed so.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

This is the Howrah Metro Station on Kolkata Metro Line 2 (East-West Metro), which connects among other places India's largest and second largest rail stations and Kolkata's International Bus Station in Esplanade, as it also passes through the Sealdah Metro Station and Esplanade.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Is there concern about water penetration in Kolkata? I've always been entertained, if that's the right word, that this was India's first subway system and then it just stagnated for years and years...

 

[jis]

Is there concern about water penetration in Kolkata? I've always been entertained, if that's the right word, that this was India's first subway system and then it just stagnated for years and years...

Kolkata is on an average about 17' over MSL and its water table is 15' or so from the surface. So of course everything underground has to be designed assuming it is under water. Yet the Calcutta Electric Supply Corporation dug the first under water tunnel in Asia under the Hooghly River (33.5m below ground level) to carry power cables back in 1931. So Kolkata is not new to doing stuff underground. What slows things down is idiotic politics that the locals excel at, usually to their own detriment. but that is a subject for another forum and another day.

The under river portion of the dual tunnel with escape cross connects and sectionalization flood gates is 30m from roof to ground level. Howrah Metro Station is also 30m below ground level (track level is of course another 5+ meters further down.

Spring tides which come up the river in the form of impressive tidal bores usually flood many areas close to the riverfront, and have done so for a hundred years. People are used to it. They know when it will happen. They just step out of its way when it comes and then continue with life as it recedes. There are many areas in Kolkata where in order to enter and underground walkway or Metro station you have to first climb up stairs 4'-6' to make sure that water from water logging due to various reasons does not get into the underground structures.

Building tubes is expensive. That is why most of Kolkata's Metro Lines are elevated 30'-60' above street level. They are underground only in the city center and that too, Line 1 was cut and cover. Only Line 2 is deep tube. Line 3 I believe is going to be mostly shallow tube since it is mostly under the Maidan into Esplanade. A short deep tube portion at the south end of the tunnel portion will be used to go under the now moribund old main channel of the river.

Anyway, very soon now, a significant proportion of the million people that use Howrah Station each day will start using this remarkable new Metro Line.

Incidentally, Kolkata Metro is a Division of Indian Railways, and the only one which is run by Indian Railways. All other Metros in India are run by self-standing separate organizations.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Here in the switch mode era all of my mobile devices have worked worldwide with a simple plug converter.

I did forget about one exception that self-destructed @ 240v. It was a nickle-cadmium battery charger for AA/AAA batteries that were used for noise-cancelling earbuds and a Bluetooth keyboard. Other than that everything has functioned properly and survived intact without issue.

 

[jis]

Here is what a Vande Bharat Express articulated distributed power set looks like. The currently deployed ones are all 16 cars for day service, so no Sleepers, just Standard Class and Executive Class Chair Cars.

 

[Rambling Robert]

Here’s inaugural service of the Express - reporter travelled complete route down and back, partly in standard and partly in first class. Very large crowds. 1/15/23

 

[jis]

They seem to be introducing one new service each month. I suppose they will continue doing so until they complete the list they provided middle of last year.

Last month they introduced the Howrah - New Jalpaiguri Vande Bharat, which occupies the morning out evening back slot, while the Shatabdi on the same route occupies the morning in evening out slot. The Vande Bharat takes 45 mins less than the Shatabdi for the journey and costs some 15% more.

Before that was Bilaspur (Chhattisgarh) - Nagpur (Maharashtra) in early December, Chennai Central - Mysuru in November, New Delhi - Amb Andaura (Himachal Pradesh) in October.

There are 21 more on the list and equipment has been ordered for all. They will be inaugurated as equipment arrives, which at present appears to have the cadence of about one per month.

 

[Bob Dylan]

They seem to be introducing one new service each month. I suppose they will continue doing so until they complete the list they provided middle of last year.

Last month they introduced the Howrah - New Jalpaiguri Vande Bharat, which occupies the morning out evening back slot, while the Shatabdi on the same route occupies the morning in evening out slot. The Vande Bharat takes 45 mins less than the Shatabdi for the journey and costs some 15% more.

Before that was Bilaspur (Chhattisgarh) - Nagpur (Maharashtra) in early December, Chennai Central - Mysuru in November, New Delhi - Amb Andaura (Himachal Pradesh) in October.

There are 21 more on the list and equipment has been ordered for all. They will be inaugurated as equipment arrives, which at present appears to have the cadence of about one per month.

Too bad Amtrak can't hire Indian Railways Execs or at least as Consultants to implement their "Plans " which take forever to come about!

 

[jis]

Too bad Amtrak can't hire Indian Railways Execs or at least as Consultants to implement their "Plans " which take forever to come about!

You'll probably have to hire Prime Minister Modi and his Railway minister since literally they are the ones making the call and funding it Railways is the life blood of India and governments rise and fall depending on what happens to the Railways.

 

[Bob Dylan]

You'll probably have to hire Prime Minister Modi and his Railway minister since literally they are the ones making the call and funding it Railways is the life blood of India and governments rise and fall depending on what happens to the Railways.

I'm aware of this jis, but how do they get the people who do the actual work to actually do it correctly and "on time"?

That is the biggest problem we have in the US now, people just don't seem to want to do their jobs correctly and "do a days work for a days pay!"

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Impressive!

I'm just surprised we're not hearing, "what, no sleepers..." here.

I'll see myself out...

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

Impressive!

I'm just surprised we're not hearing, "what, no sleepers..." here.

I'll see myself out...

Looks like the Vande Bharat Express is intended for daytime travel, IR appears to still have quite a number of overnight sleeper trains as well. Sounds like these are replacing the older Shatabdi trains which were daytime also IIRC.

 

[jis]

Looks like the Vande Bharat Express is intended for daytime travel,

Yes. These are using the so called VB2 rakes which are equipped for daytime service.

IR appears to still have quite a number of overnight sleeper trains as well.

IR has numerous overnight trains connecting almost any city to any other city where there is a train station, with upto four classes of Sleepers, so called AC1 (AC First Class shared compartments), AC2 (AC 2 Tier open bays with curtains, and AC3 (AC 3 Tier bays) and S (non AC 3 Tier bays), the last one being the most prevalent followed by the AC3. Typical Sleeper trains are 16 to 24 cars long, and the ones that carry non AC accommodation usually also carry a few so called unreserved General cars, which just have seats.

Sounds like these are replacing the older Shatabdi trains which were daytime also IIRC.

Replacing or augmenting. There are routes where a Vande Bharat has been introduced but the pre-existing Shatabdi has not been withdrawn. In those cases they are usually introduced on a close to 12 hours flipped schedule.

VB3 rakes under design and construction are 16 car Sleeper consists with AC1, AC2 and AC3 accommodation. They are intended to replace/augment Rajdhani class trains. They are also targeted for 200kph, though likely to be limited by track availability to 130-160kph initially.

 

[jis]

Indian Railways has developed its own PTC system which has all the functionality of what is called the PTC standard in the US, and what amounts to equivalent of ERTMS L2 in Europe. It is an RFID based system and cxn operate in the absence of availability of GPS for location service.

The argument apparently is that they chose not to depend on a service that is easily blocked by the Chinese or simply turned off by the Americans for operating something as critical as the railways.

This is so even though India has its own GPS constellation, which can be used as a fallback, if no terrestrial communication is available. This can happen in autonomous operation of the system in remote areas where there is no communication with any ground station available. There is a mode where locomotives can communicate directly with each other and ensure that they are not headed towards a collision.

The RFID Tags are essentially transponders like those used in ERTMS, or in other systems like ACSES or TVM430.

Anyway, the name of the system is "Kavach" which means "Armor".

Here is an RDSO published document that describes it in some detail:

An Indigenous Train Collision Avoidance System (Kavach)

At present this system is being installed progressively on all routes and locomotives/E/DMUs that will run on routes equipped with this system. The initial routes targeted for deployment are the Delhi - Mumbai and Delhi - Kolkata trunk routes. An early Autonomous version has been in use on the Konkan Railway. I think it is safe to say that Indian Railways will use this system rather than the European ETCS because they claim this is much less expensive to install and operate.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I don't know if this will be allowed on here, but for the past few weeks, NCRTC has been testing its new trains on the Delhi Meerut RRTS line, which is slated to open in March of this year. Here is a video of a cab ride on the test train, plus another video showing the exterior of the train as it passes by.

 

[cirdan]

You'll probably have to hire Prime Minister Modi and his Railway minister since literally they are the ones making the call and funding it Railways is the life blood of India and governments rise and fall depending on what happens to the Railways.

True, a positive political climate and genuine appreciation of railroads on a political and popular level does far more for their development than any individual executives can achieve by tilting against windmills in a climate that is hostile at worst and indifferent at best.

That is, if they even try to tilt against windmills. Many will prefer to go with the flow and indifferently execute their marching orders.

 

[cirdan]

I don't know if this will be allowed on here, but for the past few weeks, NCRTC has been testing its new trains on the Delhi Meerut RRTS line, which is slated to open in March of this year. Here is a video of a cab ride on the test train, plus another video showing the exterior of the train as it passes by.

Is this a new build rail route, or is it a previous existing route that was modernized?

The structures such as viaducts and stations looks entirely new, but the way old buildings seem to organically face the alignment make it look as if there previously was a ROW of some description there already.