Disillusionment with Amtrak sleeper perks
- Thread starter RickIronton
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Thank you. It's sort of like airlines playing different movies Eastbound and Westbound, or Northbound -Southbound (depending on the route) You don't want to see the same movie, but you do want the choices to be of a certain quality. Even one or two "regional specialties" on a route could add a lot to an otherwise dreary national menu.
RichardK
Service Attendant
I have been in retail or customer service related positions over the last 32 years. Reducing the level of service and amenities has an immediate cost reduction affect.
However, the true result is only realized within a year or two after the customers have migrated away and business is lost. Many companies have learned this lesson the hard way.
However, the true result is only realized within a year or two after the customers have migrated away and business is lost. Many companies have learned this lesson the hard way.
CoachSlumber
Lead Service Attendant
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Well, first, noticed that their self-sustained New Orleans scheduled sleeper service was discontinued. They can do it, but not profitably on their own, and under Amtrak aegis, there's no way they would be able to run a shop without union contracts and work rules. That is the prohibitive expense of running full service overnight trains. The Hoosier must have some kind of carve-out, maybe because it is a state-subsidized service.
crescent-zephyr
Engineer
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Well first off... No passenger transit in this country shows a profit correct? So I'm not going to hold that against them.
Second... We don't know they ended the service due to financial reasons. It could be Amtrak wouldn't cooperate with them on this service.
But my argument had nothing to do with money... It was the simple fact that IP has shown that they are capable of a regularly scheduled overnight service that includes full service sleeper, diner, and lounge services.
Second... We don't know they ended the service due to financial reasons. It could be Amtrak wouldn't cooperate with them on this service.
But my argument had nothing to do with money... It was the simple fact that IP has shown that they are capable of a regularly scheduled overnight service that includes full service sleeper, diner, and lounge services.
Gulfwind2
Train Attendant
Iowa Pacific's New Orleans-Chicago pullman service was profitable but was discontinued because Amtrak had been attempting for months to have the service done away with by artificially inflating Iowa Pacific's costs to run it. Amtrak was combative all throughout in allowing IPH to maintain its cars on Amtrak property which IPH was paying for the use of. Amtrak also gave Iowa Pacific special higher rates for hauling more than two cars on the CoNO and added a Heritage baggage car to the regular consist in an effort to justify adding a second P42 to each consist: an added expense which they started billing IPH for. The moral of the story here is that IPH and other companies are very capable of being successful in offering a profitable sleeping car product with top-notch amenities, but when Amtrak or other third parties try to take the role of the middleman to an extreme, the service cannot coexist with these forces.
OlympianHiawatha
Engineer
My concern with IP or any other private operator using vintage stock is the stock itself-while it might be of major historic value and enjoyable to ride, the maintenance costs have to be outrageous. Of course buying new stock would be even worse financially, not to mention the possibility of having to wait endless years like Amtrak is for the V2 stuff.
crescent-zephyr
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People make that argument all the time but I've yet to see any data to support it. For example... Does the state of North Carolina pay more for maintenance on their heritage fleet vs. other state supported corridors that own or lease their own equipment?
How much more does it cost to maintain the Pacific Parlour Cars vs. the sightseer lounge cars?
How much more does it cost to maintain the Pacific Parlour Cars vs. the sightseer lounge cars?
Lack of data transparency has been a recurring theme on this board on many accounts. It is a logical assumption that as any fleet ages it gets more costly to maintain, wear and tear takes its toll, and parts get harder and harder to source. But most of Amtrak's fleet falls into the same category, with the difference being quantity and commonality. Not a lot of one or two of groups. That has been one of the challenges for the PPC.
Cho Cho Charlie
Engineer
I have to ask, if this so easy to be profitable, then why isn't GrandLuxe still around? Amongst other offerings, they had a few high-end sleepers on the Silver Meteor consists.
https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer/AM_Content_C/1241267386375/1237608345018
https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer/AM_Content_C/1241267386375/1237608345018
I predict further efficiency improvements and cost cutting moves in the coming years. The future of Amtrak may be to have a private contractor staff and operate all of the sleepers and dining cars with Amtrak staff running the coaches. The Chicago Metro Lounge is now being run by an outside service. The two people stationed at the front desk may be Amtrak employees. Amtrak hires about 20,000 workers and if congress votes to reduce this workforce, it opens the door to private contractors.
neroden
Engineer
Pullman Company redux?
Of course my post is all speculation, but what I envision is Amtrak owning the equipment and contracting out the operation of the sleepers and dining cars. I am in no way advocating for this, claiming that it is fair (or the right move); but if you look at the constant cuts that the service has been forced to make, it may very well be the next step. Only time will tell. The good news is that both presidential candidates are advocating for improvements in the nations rail transportation infrastructure.They need to be held to that promise.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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A President can however only go so far without active support from Cognress. Reportedly there are only 40 or so seats in Congress that is likely to change. I wonder if that is enough to change Congress's behavior which has shown no fortitude for not being swayed to wild corners by a minority of its members.
I don't think it's impossible, but can't imagine how a private firm could do better than Amtrak fiscally, when it would have to add the cost of its own administration to what Amtrak already has in place, even though Amtrak would no longer be providing most of that support.
Such an operation would probably have to raise fares considerably, say to the level VIA charges. That would result in moving the sleeper market upscale, and out of reach of most travelers, other than affluent tourists.
Similar to the Canadian....
CoachSlumber
Lead Service Attendant
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But note that in the end, it had gotten crazy expensive.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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One of the big costs is labor, and there is considerable room for savings by using non-union labor with interesting (and perhaps distressing) modified working rules which no Union would ever agree to.
However, reading this forum I gather that there are plenty of people around here who fall under the category of rich enough to be able to afford the Canadian, so it should be fine by them. It would be fine by the likes of me as long such a service is not subsidized exclusively without providing any normal travel level fare Coach service. If all that one wants to run is luxury Sleeper service, that should be done sans subsidy on ones own dime.
To go further with this idea, consider my experience last week, on a business trip. I was staying at a hotel brand designed for business travelers. Not upscale, but comfortable, no Motel 6 here. (and, by the way Motel 6 is fine for what it offers.) They didn't offer full food service, but rather what they called a "bistro," which was kind of like an Amtrak cafe car, if you had more room to spread out. The menu looked like a cross between a diner-lite and the cafe car. Unfortunately, I never got a chance to sample it, because when I went there for breakfast, there was only one attendant staffing the place, and the process in place did not seem to be designed for speed. With two people ahead of me, I figured it might be lunch time before I could get breakfast (OK, so i'm exaggerating a bit), so I bailed, went across the street to a Bob Evans, and was served very quickly diner-style by a real waitress. My equivalent breakfast as even a dollar cheaper.
I should point out that I doubt that the attendant at the hotel "bistro" was some sort of lazy overpaid union drone, either.
Hotels, of course, can operate successfully without providing food service, especially if they're located if they're located in strip mall suburbia like the one where I stayed, with lots and lots of choices. A long distance train, on the other hand will lose a lot of business if they can't get the passengers fed.
Yep, Live like a King on Government per Diem!
I remember it well!
And BTW, what is the going rate now days for Travel Per Diem?
I remember it well!
And BTW, what is the going rate now days for Travel Per Diem?
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"Live like a king?" Not quite.
Per diem rates depends on where you're staying. Google "CONUS per diem rates federal travel" or something like that and you should get what you're looking for.
BTW, if the hotel offers a free breakfast and you eat it, they take $10 off your meal allowance.
The city where I was staying was $106 for lodging, $59 for M&IE (meals in incidental expenses).
Washington DC area is $222 for lodging, $69 for M&IE. I once organized meetings for an advisory committee I was managing. (Well, we actually had a contractor who did the legwork.) Most of the time, we had to hold the meeting in northern Virginia suburbs because we couldn't find any hotels in Washington that offered rates at the per diem allowance.
For many years, our agency, too, had a "wink-wink-nod-nod" practice of not caring about hotel-supplied meals. Then they changed the voucher forms, and we specifically have to list any meals provided, which is included in the voucher statement we sign attesting that the claim is true. It's not worth it to me to lie on an official form with my signature on it. This also applies to conferences where meals are served, so I'm getting my M&IE docked for the two lousy rubber chicken lunches they served up on my trip last week. Believe me, Amtrak diner chow was better than those lunches.
Tennessee Traveler
Conductor
Moderator, this topic is so far off the original topic, why is it still up or at least change the name of the topic.
Thanks, I think you know I was being sarcastic with the "Live like a King" Remark!( And lazy about looking up the going rate!),
The Hotels I used to stay at while traveling on Uncle Sam's Dime were always at a Government Rate as were the Rent Cars, and Tickets for Travel.(Airline,Rail etc.)I did have a Government Credit Card and with enough lead time could get a Cash advance for "Misc. expenses, ie taxis/local transportation,laundry/dry cleaning,tips.)
.
The point about the "Free Breakfast" coming off your Meal Allowance speaks for itself, nickel and dime stuff!.
As for holding conferences and meetings in the DC Area, the "Cross Keys Inn" between Baltimore and DC was a Popular venue for many Government functions, but of course I didn't stay in a Room since I lived in the area.
The Hotels I used to stay at while traveling on Uncle Sam's Dime were always at a Government Rate as were the Rent Cars, and Tickets for Travel.(Airline,Rail etc.)I did have a Government Credit Card and with enough lead time could get a Cash advance for "Misc. expenses, ie taxis/local transportation,laundry/dry cleaning,tips.)
.
The point about the "Free Breakfast" coming off your Meal Allowance speaks for itself, nickel and dime stuff!.
As for holding conferences and meetings in the DC Area, the "Cross Keys Inn" between Baltimore and DC was a Popular venue for many Government functions, but of course I didn't stay in a Room since I lived in the area.
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Hytec
Lead Service Attendant
25 years ago, I had a one day meeting (10:00-4:00) in Crystal City, VA (Arlington). Working on the Mississippi Gulf Coast, I compared expenses between flying and the Crescent....
Air: $1200 R/T, Motel $180/night (2 nights) = $1560.
Crescent: $750 R/T Sleeper (SDL-WAS) = $750.
(Flying required spending two nights due to flight schedules.)
When I applied for the cash advance, the finance manager asked why I was taking "A TRAIN?". I showed him the above figures, and he said "Have a nice trip". I did, and continued to do so for every meeting with my customer until I retired.
Air: $1200 R/T, Motel $180/night (2 nights) = $1560.
Crescent: $750 R/T Sleeper (SDL-WAS) = $750.
(Flying required spending two nights due to flight schedules.)
When I applied for the cash advance, the finance manager asked why I was taking "A TRAIN?". I showed him the above figures, and he said "Have a nice trip". I did, and continued to do so for every meeting with my customer until I retired.
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