Disney World Monorail Crash

[Ryan]

We drove in, I'm pretty sure that we had to pay to park, but other than that there were no impediments. It'd be a pretty long walk from what I remember, but there didn't seem to be anything to stop you.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm sure the actual concept of "unprecedented" is as vague to most writers as that of "unique." I'd wager than in ten years the phrase "most unique" is standard English, if it isn't already. We live in fallen times.

I do not like vagueness in language. The English language is capable of great precision, and I can't stand it when people keep trying to kill it by improperly using words interchangeably.

"Unprecedented" combines the prefix "un", the word "precedent", and the suffix "ed". A "precedent" is something that has happened in the past that sets the standard for forthcoming situations. The suffix "un" is a negator implying the absence of the word it precedes. "Ed" is a suffix placed to demonstrate the word it succeeds took place in the past.

"Unprecedented" means, very specifically, "Nothing in the past has taken place to set the standards for this future event." Thus, the statement is, unquestionably, inaccurate. Many things have taken place to set various standards for this. Rail crashes. The NTSB investigating same. The NTSB investigating accidents relating to CTC controlled mass transit- hell the DC crash a few days ago stands as an example. There are many precedents for this. Not all of this is charted territory, but there are precedents. So it isn't unprecedented.

Unique? Almost every accident is unique. Unusual? Yes, this accident is unusual. Different then what has come before it? Certainly. But unprecedented? Not in the least. People should chose words more carefully.

 

[AlanB]

As I recall (I've been there once, about 2 years ago), anyone can just walk up and ride the monorail from the TTC to the Magic Kingdom without a ticket for anything - once you get to the Magic Kingdom stop, you get off and walk a short distance to the park gate where you present your ticket for admission.

Can one walk to the TTC, without being a Disney guest? Can one really walk onto WDW grounds?

I don't believe that one can just walk to the TTC, if memory serves none of the roads that lead there from outside the World have sidewalks. However, one could walk from Outside to Downtown Disney or take a local bus or drive to the free parking lot there. At that point, you could board a free Disney bus to the TTC or Epcot for that matter, and then ride the monorail.

At one point many years ago, they used to check to see that one had either a resort ID or a World Pass/ticket coupon book. At that time, failure to have either would have resulted in your being turned away. If I had to guess, I'd say it's going on 15 to 20 years now since they've stopped asking for proof. I think that there is still a disclaimer that you're supposed to be a resort guest or holding a World Passport to board any form of Disney Transportation, but in the interests of guest convienence and keeping costs down, they never ask for proof anymore.

 

[Tony]

"Unprecedented" means, very specifically, "Nothing in the past has taken place to set the standards for this future event." Thus, the statement is, unquestionably, inaccurate. Many things have taken place to set various standards for this. Rail crashes. The NTSB investigating same. The NTSB investigating accidents relating to CTC controlled mass transit- hell the DC crash a few days ago stands as an example. There are many precedents for this. Not all of this is charted territory, but there are precedents. So it isn't unprecedented.

As RTOlson previously asked,

cite precedent for several points:- A previous case of NTSB investigating all-private transport operating on private property.

- A previous case of NTSB investigating a monorail accident at Disneyland or Walt Disney World.

- A previous NTSB investigation of any amusement park attraction, ride or transport.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Having unique aspects and being unprecedented are two different things. The journalist butchered the English language. Period.

 

[RTOlson]

Ahem - from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

Unprecedented - having no precedent: novel, unexampled.

I think there are enough "unexampled" aspects of this case to say it was unprecedented. No one has been able to cite examples for two of the three qualities of this unique, novel, unexampled, unprecedented investigation.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Ahem - from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:Unprecedented - having no precedent: novel, unexampled.

I think there are enough "unexampled" aspects of this case to say it was unprecedented. No one has been able to cite examples for two of the three qualities of this unique, novel, unexampled, unprecedented investigation.

The online version of Miriam-Webster is an embarrassment. My real dictionary states that it means without precedent, and defines precedent as: N, something done or said that may serve or be adduced as an example, reason, or justification for a subsequent act of a like kind.

Under that definition, there are clearly precedents. My dictionary, THE definitive dictionary of the American English language, in my opinion, is Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary of the English Language, Second Edition. My particular copy is copyrighted 1968 and printed in 1969.

 

[TampAGS]

It is unclear at this point if the operator who was killed had started to slow his train or not, much less what else he did or didn't do in the few seconds that he probably had between realizing that Pink was heading towards him and the actual collision. The fact that Purple was also in motion explains why he didn't reverse his train in an attempt to ourrun Pink. Reversing either requires a full stop or a rather complicated procedure when in motion, and even then the motors and the train won't react all that well to suddenly being thrown into reverse.

Local Orlando news reported tonight that the initial findings of the NTSB indicate that the pilot did indeed attempt to reverse the purple train immediately before the pink train crashed into his cockpit.

 

The pink train had advanced beyond the Transportation Center where it was supposed to have cleared a switch which would have sent it onto an alternate track when it began its reverse trip. For whatever reason, that switch did not activate and the pink train reversed down the same track right back into the Transportation Center where the collision occurred. The NTSB is now focusing on what caused the failure of that switch.

 

The pilot's funeral services took place today in Kissimmee. He was recalled as describing his duties at the helm of Disney's Monorails as "a dream job". Video taken by a family who had once ridden with him at the front of a train gives a glimpse of him sharing his enjoyment of the train with park guests: WESH-TV video of family with Monorail Pilot

 

Also announced was the fact that the manager on-duty of the Monorail system was off-property at the time when the accident occurred. They pointed out that it isn't customary for managers to eyeball the trains for the length of their shift, but noted that the factor of being away from Disney property is likely to come under heavy scrutiny.

 

A link to tonight's story is here: WESH-TV: Monorail Pilot Who Died Stopped, Tried to Back Up

 

 

 

[RTOlson]

So ...

cite precedent for several points:- A previous case of NTSB investigating all-private transport operating on private property.

- A previous case of NTSB investigating a monorail accident at Disneyland or Walt Disney World.

- A previous NTSB investigation of any amusement park attraction, ride or transport.

So far, unprecedented is batting 2 of 3...

Edit to add: I think I'll lay off the point after this post. I believe that there are many aspects of this investigation that are unprecedented (enough to justify the reporter's use of the phrase). Given the different citations for "unprecedented," I also believe that the definition of the word is flexible enough to accommodate many different interpretations.

Now, there are also other elements of this case that are commonplace -- the NTSB is sending humans to conduct the investigation, the NTSB is likely filing reports about the investigation, they had a spokesman talk to the press, etc.

I am a reporter so I am defending the craft and the original writer. However, I would just ask that people consider the possibility that the use of the word is OK instead of automatically assuming that someone is ignorant or stupid because their use of the English language or their take on the situation doesn't fully coincide with theirs.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

So ...

cite precedent for several points:- A previous case of NTSB investigating all-private transport operating on private property.

- A previous case of NTSB investigating a monorail accident at Disneyland or Walt Disney World.

- A previous NTSB investigation of any amusement park attraction, ride or transport.

So far, unprecedented is batting 2 of 3...

Edit to add: I think I'll lay off the point after this post. I believe that there are many aspects of this investigation that are unprecedented (enough to justify the reporter's use of the phrase). Given the different citations for "unprecedented," I also believe that the definition of the word is flexible enough to accommodate many different interpretations.

That's what I find so utterly disgusting about newer editions. They suggest that words are flexible. You can make them flexible, but only at a loss in precision, and I hate when it becomes difficult to communicate because people start using words inappropriately. As a reporter, you should be ashamed of yourself for condoning such behavior and, indeed, arguing on its behalf.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

Adding to an earlier post here is a link to the NTSB Statement

 

[Tony]

There are indications that the operator of the Purple train had brought the train to a stop and had attempted to put the train in reverse prior to the collision.

Ah, so the Purple train pilot did see the Pink train barreling toward him, and did attempt to "peel out in reverse".

I guess that puts to rest the "why didn't he?" claim, and the supposition that he was too inexperienced to attempt such.

 

[whistler]

Ahem - from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:Unprecedented - having no precedent: novel, unexampled.

I think there are enough "unexampled" aspects of this case to say it was unprecedented. No one has been able to cite examples for two of the three qualities of this unique, novel, unexampled, unprecedented investigation.

Wouldn't the NTSB's investigation into the Gettysburg Railroad steam engine explosion be the precedent, at least one of them? At least it appears to me to be.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Wouldn't the NTSB's investigation into the Gettysburg Railroad steam engine explosion be the precedent, at least one of them? At least it appears to me to be.

Among many. That's my point. There are many things in the past that set the standard for this, an investigation of an entirely private transportation system inside a tourist attraction by the National Transportation Safety Board.

The above set of words is unique:

1. I have never before typed the above set of words.
   
2. I didn't do it before at 12:26.
   
3. I didn't do it before on a Thursday.
   
4. I didn't do it before on Amtrak Unlimited.
   
5. I didn't do it before on a July 9th.
   
6. I didn't do it before in the year 2009.
   
7. To my knowledge, I have never before argued about the word "unprecedented."
   

All of these things are unique aspects of my above paragraph. It is unique in so many different ways. And yet, as others will admit, this is in the style of many posts I have made that are:

1. Argumentative.
   
2. About tiny, unimportant (to most people) things.
   
3. Involve inappropriate usage of the English language.
   
4. In regard to items almost irrelevant to the original topic.
   

In fact, some people might say this is a typical GML argument. There is precedent for me arguing about stuff like this. Its a unique argument, yes. It is not, in the least, unprecedented.

 

[Tony]

As the investigation continues to unfold...

Disney Monorail Errors Investigated

 

[George Harris]

For the legal base of NTSB involvement, here is what is probably the relevant statement giving the NTSB the authority investigate this accident. It is a quote from the Code of Federal Regulations part that gives the makeup, mission, and authority for the National Transportation Board.

Reference: 49CFR831:

PART 831—ACCIDENT/INCIDENT INVESTIGATION PROCEDURES
Authority: Independent Safety Board Act of 1974, as amended (49 U.S.C. 1101 et seq. ); Federal Aviation Act of 1958, as amended (49 U.S.C. 40101 et seq. ).

Source: 53 FR 15847, May 4, 1988, unless otherwise noted.

§ 831.1 Applicability of part.

Unless otherwise specifically ordered by the National Transportation Safety Board (Board), the provisions of this part shall govern all accident or incident investigations, conducted under the authority of title VII of the Federal Aviation Act of 1958, as amended, and the Independent Safety Board Act of 1974. Rules applicable to accident hearings and reports are set forth in part 845.

§ 831.2 Responsibility of Board.

. . . .

( c ) Other accidents/incidents. The Board is also responsible for the investigation of an accident/incident that occurs in connection with the transportation of people or property which, in the judgment of the Board, is catastrophic, involves problems of a recurring character, or would otherwise carry out the policy of the Independent Safety Board Act of 1974. This authority includes, but is not limited to, marine and boating accidents and incidents not covered by part 850 of this chapter, and accidents/incidents selected by the Board involving transportation and/or release of hazardous materials.

[62 FR 3806, Jan. 27, 1997]

§ 831.3 Authority of Directors.

The Directors, Office of Aviation Safety, Office of Railroad Safety, Office of Highway Safety, Office of Marine Safety, and Office of Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety, subject to the provisions of §831.2 and part 800 of this chapter, may order an investigation into any accident or incident.

[63 FR 71606, Dec. 29, 1998]

Note that in 831.3 any of the various directors "may order an investigation into any accident or incident" which in combination with the list in 831.2 ( c ), means that if they choose to investigate a particular accident in any form of transport that moves people or freight they can do so simply by deciding to do so.

 

[PRR 60]

And, it should be noted, that the NTSB notified Disney very shortly after the accident that they intended to conduct the investigation, and Disney willingly agreed without the NTSB having to exercise any legal authority.

 

[VentureForth]

As I recall (I've been there once, about 2 years ago), anyone can just walk up and ride the monorail from the TTC to the Magic Kingdom without a ticket for anything - once you get to the Magic Kingdom stop, you get off and walk a short distance to the park gate where you present your ticket for admission.

Can one walk to the TTC, without being a Disney guest? Can one really walk onto WDW grounds?

I don't believe that one can just walk to the TTC, if memory serves none of the roads that lead there from outside the World have sidewalks. However, one could walk from Outside to Downtown Disney or take a local bus or drive to the free parking lot there. At that point, you could board a free Disney bus to the TTC or Epcot for that matter, and then ride the monorail.

At one point many years ago, they used to check to see that one had either a resort ID or a World Pass/ticket coupon book. At that time, failure to have either would have resulted in your being turned away. If I had to guess, I'd say it's going on 15 to 20 years now since they've stopped asking for proof. I think that there is still a disclaimer that you're supposed to be a resort guest or holding a World Passport to board any form of Disney Transportation, but in the interests of guest convienence and keeping costs down, they never ask for proof anymore.

You are quite correct, Alan. Though the intent of ANY of the transportation modes are officially for "Resort Guests Only" and "Resort ID Required," it is not enforced. It wasn't when I worked there 15 years ago, and it wasn't last month. They have the right to enforce it, though, at any time. It won't cost anything to help except goodwill for the few that like to mooch.

That being said, they do make it hard to avoid parking fees by having most busses from public access points go to the hotels rather tha to a Park - that way, it'll take you 45 - 60 minutes, changing busses at least once, to get a free ride to any of the major parks.

First thing I did when I took my family there last month was hop on the Sassgalooga River Boat and take a ride from Downtown Disney to Port Orleans. No I'd check, no problem.

Riding the monorail is a bit more difficult because you pretty much have to pony up the $10 parking to get to the TTC. Oh, you could make a dinner reservation at the Contemporary and get in free and ride all you want. But dinner will cost you WAY more than $10!

As for the NTSB, I'll change my attitude towards their jurisdiction a bit - They're the Feds and they have as much right to investigate the monorail as the FDA has to investigate any restaurant on site and OSHA has to investigate an occupational hazzard on site. However, I will say that these entities probably have an easier time getting access to investigate a tragedy as opposed to pre-emptive inspections.

Anyone ever see a Health Department scorecard at a Disney food place? They do have a bit of influence...

 

[Tony]

Three Disney monorail workers placed on leave after crash

 

[phase90]

I think we can enjoy a discussion about semantics without calling someone ignorant (besides it was the NTSB agent who said the investigation was unprecedented).
If the NTSB investigation isn't "unprecedented," then you guys should be able to cite precedent for several points:

- A previous case of NTSB investigating all-private transport operating on private property.

- A previous case of NTSB investigating a monorail accident at Disneyland or Walt Disney World.

- A previous NTSB investigation of any amusement park attraction, ride or transport.

I can only cite precedent for one point — most railroad incidents likely involve railroads (private companies) operating private transport (their trains) largely on private property (their tracks and rights-of-way).

Aside from that, the Orlando Sentinel story cites several other reasons why this NTSB investigation is unique in several ways, seemingly without precedent (hence, its status as "unprecedented").

The only thing unprecedented about it is it is the first fatality on the Disneyworld monorail.

 

[phase90]

Wouldn't the NTSB's investigation into the Gettysburg Railroad steam engine explosion be the precedent, at least one of them? At least it appears to me to be.

Among many. That's my point. There are many things in the past that set the standard for this, an investigation of an entirely private transportation system inside a tourist attraction by the National Transportation Safety Board.

The above set of words is unique:

1. I have never before typed the above set of words.
   
2. I didn't do it before at 12:26.
   
3. I didn't do it before on a Thursday.
   
4. I didn't do it before on Amtrak Unlimited.
   
5. I didn't do it before on a July 9th.
   
6. I didn't do it before in the year 2009.
   
7. To my knowledge, I have never before argued about the word "unprecedented."
   

All of these things are unique aspects of my above paragraph. It is unique in so many different ways. And yet, as others will admit, this is in the style of many posts I have made that are:

1. Argumentative.
   
2. About tiny, unimportant (to most people) things.
   
3. Involve inappropriate usage of the English language.
   
4. In regard to items almost irrelevant to the original topic.
   

In fact, some people might say this is a typical GML argument. There is precedent for me arguing about stuff like this. Its a unique argument, yes. It is not, in the least, unprecedented.

You've got a surplus of time on your hands to micro-manage words like that. I'm wagering you're a govt. employee - not necesarrily a govt. worker - 2 different things.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You've got a surplus of time on your hands to micro-manage words like that. I'm wagering you're a govt. employee - not necesarrily a govt. worker - 2 different things.

To be honest, I do it without thought. I'm sure people notice that my frequency of typoing- or simply leaving out words I meant to type- is very high. I don't micro-manage words at all. I just have clear definitions of each one in my head. Unlike far too many Americans, it seems, I happen to have a strong command of the English language. I took Latin when I was in high school, I speak Yiddish and Hebrew quite fluently, and I can communicate successfully in Arabic and German. I guess language is a natural strength of mine.

As for what I do, you're right. I have way too much time on my hands. But unlike a government employee, at least I have the decency to not collect a pay check for my not working- I'm unemployed. I don't collect unemployment either. I'm an honestly unemployed, no income bum. I'm looking for, have been looking for, work as a trainman, but the freights aren't exactly hiring now.

 

[VentureForth]

According to Netcot.com, they have implemented a lot of new safety regulations - some of which [byGolly!] used to be implemented but were eliminated to decrease dwell and loading/unloading times [/byGolly!].

Must have been taken out by Eisner. Heck, when I was at Tokyo Disneyland and worked the JUNGLE CRUISE, no fewer than three people were involved in switching a boat back off stage. And at 5 knots, we were hardly in danger of injuring a guest.

Biggest lost for guests is no more riding in the cab. That's truly a shame, as it gave MANY guests a really special opportunity to enjoy the magic. I understand the ban, expected it, but don't like it.

 

[Rafi]

Biggest lost for guests is no more riding in the cab. That's truly a shame, as it gave MANY guests a really special opportunity to enjoy the magic. I understand the ban, expected it, but don't like it.

And it was one of those perks that truly rang of Walt Disney, a railfan himself who was known to enjoy cab rides immensely. It seemed only fitting that you could get that experience at his back yard, so to speak. It's so unfortunate to see that experience go away. Again, expected, but I don't like it either.

Rafi

 

[Neil_M]

To be honest, I do it without thought. I'm sure people notice that my frequency of typoing- or simply leaving out words I meant to type- is very high. I don't micro-manage words at all. I just have clear definitions of each one in my head. Unlike far too many Americans, it seems, I happen to have a strong command of the English language. I took Latin when I was in high school, I speak Yiddish and Hebrew quite fluently, and I can communicate successfully in Arabic and German. I guess language is a natural strength of mine.
As for what I do, you're right. I have way too much time on my hands. But unlike a government employee, at least I have the decency to not collect a pay check for my not working- I'm unemployed. I don't collect unemployment either. I'm an honestly unemployed, no income bum. I'm looking for, have been looking for, work as a trainman, but the freights aren't exactly hiring now.

Wow, you are great. tell us how great you are some more......

Honestly unemployed? That's one way of describing it!