Dreamliner Nightmares

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I think Boeing at this point is throwing up any bunch of possibilities to get a quick resolution, but I think given the situation they will fail to get buyin from the regulatory authorities of multiple countries involved, with these patchup schemes, and will have to hunker down and actually find the reason for the failure first.

McNearny is probably fighting for his own survival and putting appropriate pressure on Boeing engineers. but I doubt that NTSB and FAA will buy into any of these schemes, not to mention the European and Japaneses regulators.

Currently being studied in great detail are the BMS (Battery Management System) and also the basic design of the batteries, what with the Tesla guy and an MIT Professor joining the fray, possibly partly to raise their own visibility. But then again they may have a point. There is apparently quite a while to go before the proverbial fat lady sings on this one I am afraid.
 
This issue brings to mind the problems laptop computer's had with lithium batteries overheating. It seems that finally was resolved, or went away.....

I have no idea whatsoever if there is any relationship between the two, but who knows?
 
This issue brings to mind the problems laptop computer's had with lithium batteries overheating. It seems that finally was resolved, or went away.....I have no idea whatsoever if there is any relationship between the two, but who knows?
And the Chevy Volt had its day in the news spotlight over its lithium batteries reportedly causing fires.
 
Report: Boeing has fix for 787 battery problem

Boeing has found a way to fix its battery problems with the grounded 787, Reuters reports.

A company source said the fix involves increasing the space between cells of the lithium ion batteries in order to prevent overheating. The fix could put the planes back in service by mid-March, according to the source.
Meanwhile, a probe into the overheating of a lithium ion battery in an All Nippon Airways 787 found it was improperly wired, Japan's Transport Ministry said Wednesday.
 
Report: Boeing has fix for 787 battery problem

Boeing has found a way to fix its battery problems with the grounded 787, Reuters reports.

A company source said the fix involves increasing the space between cells of the lithium ion batteries in order to prevent overheating. The fix could put the planes back in service by mid-March, according to the source.

Meanwhile, a probe into the overheating of a lithium ion battery in an All Nippon Airways 787 found it was improperly wired, Japan's Transport Ministry said Wednesday.
It has been reported on airliners.net by knowledgeable sources that United found improper wiring of batteries in three of the six aircraft delivered to them so far(!) and corrected the wiring before putting the aircraft into operation for the last two. One was discovered after the emergency landing in New Orleans.
 
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This issue brings to mind the problems laptop computer's had with lithium batteries overheating. It seems that finally was resolved, or went away.....I have no idea whatsoever if there is any relationship between the two, but who knows?
Aloha

In theater we use lots of lithium batteries. In a recipient trade publication there was a 4 or 5 page article on the safe handling in using these batteries.
 
Suffice it to say that even the LI-Ion battery used in Tesla is small compared to the giant that is used in the 787. Basically it looks like they have to redo the physical design to enable better dissipation of heat and also better monitoring of temp on a per cell basis and be able to shut things off when overheating is detected at a lower threshold. And of course containment and venting has to be improved too. And wiring the darned thing right would help a lot too!
 
The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Boeing will propose a 10-item suite of temporary fixes to the FAA on Friday that are intended to address problems with the plane's lithium-ion batteries. A new fireproof enclosure, checklists for the cockpit crew, and a different venting system are said to be among the short-term items, while a redesign of the batteries themselves is also included as a long-term solution. The redesign will reportedly utilize measurements of both temperature and voltage changes in the battery cells themselves.That said, the root cause of the plane's battery problems is still undetermined — leading to the possibility that the full investigation could continue on for years. According to theWSJ, Boeing hopes the fixes will allow it to get the Dreamliner back into the air for commercial flights; the plane has been grounded by the FAA since January.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/20/4010244/boeing-reportedly-present-787-dreamliner-battery-fixes-to-faa-this-week
 
Report: Boeing has fix for 787 battery problem

Boeing has found a way to fix its battery problems with the grounded 787, Reuters reports.

A company source said the fix involves increasing the space between cells of the lithium ion batteries in order to prevent overheating. The fix could put the planes back in service by mid-March, according to the source.

Meanwhile, a probe into the overheating of a lithium ion battery in an All Nippon Airways 787 found it was improperly wired, Japan's Transport Ministry said Wednesday.
It has been reported on airliners.net by knowledgeable sources that United found improper wiring of batteries in three of the six aircraft delivered to them so far(!) and corrected the wiring before putting the aircraft into operation for the last two. One was discovered after the emergency landing in New Orleans.
I just heard a report that the Japan Airline plane that had the battery fire on the ground was also found to have a wiring error.
 
Battery Failure and the 787 Dreamliner

Previous aircraft have had other types of batteries on board, such as the 777 with nickel cadmium batteries, but this battery chemistry wasn't good enough for what Boeing wanted to do with the 787. NiCd batteries have a low energy density, so they end up weighing a lot, which is antithetical to the 787's lightweight designs. What's more, after many charging cycles, NiCd batteries suffer from the memory effect that effectively reduces the energy capacity. Perhaps most importantly, NiCd batteries also can't deliver electricity very quickly, so applications like starting a jet engine aren't practical. Li-ion batteries are more energy-dense, have better power delivery, and don't suffer from the memory effect, so they offer many tangible advantages over NiCd that enable them to be used in new, interesting ways on the 787.

There is one downside for Li-ion batteries, however. They have been known to occasionally burst into flames, seemingly at random. But we live in a physical world where batteries don't just spontaneously combust without a reason; these failures happen because something has gone awry in the battery or its design. To understand what's happening, first we need to talk a little bit about how batteries work.
 
Reports of Boeing 787 test flights "completely inaccurate": FAA

(Reuters) - The Federal Aviation Administration said it is not close to approving test flights of Boeing's 787 Dreamliner with a proposed fix for the plane's troubled batteries, denying news reports that such tests could start as early as next week.
"Reports that we are close to allowing 787 test flights are completely inaccurate," spokeswoman Laura Brown said on Tuesday in an email to Reuters.
 
When they fix the problem, maybe Boeing should develop a new mini-787 for long-range, low-capacity flights. They would be a hit with the money-strapped airlines that are everywhere these days.

These problems do seem more serious than issues that the 777 had.
 
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To put a different spin on the upcoming sequester, I wonder if some of the key FAA players in this re-certification process for the 787 are on the furlough list?
 
These problems do seem more serious than issues that the 777 had.
What issues did the 777 have? If I remember correctly, the 777 had one of the smoothest problem-free entry into service for any aircraft type and to this day it maintains an incredible safety record of zero passenger fatalities over millions of flights and over 1000 aircraft taking it to the air.
 
These problems do seem more serious than issues that the 777 had.
What issues did the 777 have? If I remember correctly, the 777 had one of the smoothest problem-free entry into service for any aircraft type and to this day it maintains an incredible safety record of zero passenger fatalities over millions of flights and over 1000 aircraft taking it to the air.
IDK, but someone said "these problems are no different than the ones the 777 had when it enterted service."
 
Boeing 787 battery fire was difficult to control
WASHINGTON (AP) — Firefighters and mechanics tried repeatedly to put out a battery fire aboard a Boeing 787 Dreamliner through smoke so thick they couldn't see the battery, according to documents released Thursday that portray the incident as more serious than previously described.

The Jan. 7 fire at Boston's Logan International Airport is under investigation by the National Transportation Safety board, which released laboratory analyses, interviews and other data it has gathered so far. It still hasn't been able to pinpoint the cause.

Federal Aviation Administration officials are expected to make a decision in the next few days on whether to approve a plan by Boeing to revamp the 787's lithium ion batteries to prevent or contain future fires. Once the plan is approved, Boeing hopes to swiftly test the reconfigured batteries and get the planes back in the air.
 
The 777 was designed before the FAA put the fox in charge of the henhouse.

Now Boeing and their partners do their own self-certifications.

Apparently we're already enjoying the fruits of this new policy.
 
From the Wall Street Journal, 3/12/2013:

U.S. aviation safety investigators examining Boeing Co.'s Dreamliner increasingly are focusing on manufacturing or design problems with the batteries as possible causes of overheating rather than on other parts of the jet's electrical system, the head of the National Transportation Safety Board said Monday.
The full story is HERE. (WSJ subscription may be required. Google "Dreamliner News" for link that may bypass the paywall.)
 
FAA approved Boeing's plan to fix the batter problem on the 787 this Tuesday....

A Boeing plan to redesign the 787 Dreamliner's fire-plagued lithium-ion batteries won approval Tuesday from the Federal Aviation Administration, moving the cutting-edge planes a step closer to flying passengers again.

The plan includes changes to the internal battery components to minimize the possibility of short-circuiting, which can lead to overheating and cause a fire. Among the changes are better insulation of the battery's eight cells and the addition of a new containment and venting system, the FAA said in a statement.

The FAA statement didn't provide an estimate for when the grounded planes might return to service. Rep. Rick Larsen, D-Wash., who was briefed by the agency, said that if all goes well, the FAA could give final approval by mid- to late April for the 787 to resume flight.

Boeing would still have to retrofit the 50 planes already delivered to eight airlines in seven countries, Larsen said in an interview. That could mean the plane wouldn't return to the skies until late April or early May, he said.
Read the whole article at http://news.yahoo.com/faa-approves-boeing-plan-fix-220605784.html
 
Here's the full FAA Press Release:

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) today approved the Boeing Commercial Airplane Company's certification plan for the redesigned 787 battery system, after thoroughly reviewing Boeing's proposed modifications and the company's plan to demonstrate that the system will meet FAA requirements. The certification plan is the first step in the process to evaluate the 787's return to flight and requires Boeing to conduct extensive testing and analysis to demonstrate compliance with the applicable safety regulations and special conditions."This comprehensive series of tests will show us whether the proposed battery improvements will work as designed," said Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. "We won't allow the plane to return to service unless we're satisfied that the new design ensures the safety of the aircraft and its passengers."

The battery system improvements include a redesign of the internal battery components to minimize initiation of a short circuit within the battery, better insulation of the cells and the addition of a new containment and venting system.

"We are confident the plan we approved today includes all the right elements to conduct a comprehensive evaluation of the battery system redesign," said FAA Administrator Michael P. Huerta. "Today's announcement starts a testing process which will demonstrate whether the proposed fix will work as designed."

The certification plan requires a series of tests which must be passed before the 787 could return to service. The plan establishes specific pass/fail criteria, defines the parameters that should be measured, prescribes the test methodology and specifies the test setup and design. FAA engineers will be present for the testing and will be closely involved in all aspects of the process.

The FAA also has approved limited test flights for two aircraft. These aircraft will have the prototype versions of the new containment system installed. The purpose of the flight tests will be to validate the aircraft instrumentation for the battery and battery enclosure testing in addition to product improvements for other systems.

The FAA will approve the redesign only if the company successfully completes all required tests and analysis to demonstrate the new design complies with FAA requirements. The FAA's January 16, 2013 airworthiness directive, which required operators to temporarily cease 787 operations, is still in effect, and the FAA is continuing its comprehensive review of the 787 design, production and manufacturing process.
Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/business/boeing/article/FAA-OKs-plan-for-fixing-Boeing-787-battery-4348955.php#ixzz2NNclXicB
 
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