EB - Lateness Problems This Summer

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Anybody know what happened last night? EB sat 7+ hours west of Williston. Nothing in TO. No news that I could find, and nothing on BNSF service advisory page. Freight breakdown?

On a better note, I just did ALY/LAX/NOL/CVS and everything ran on time or even early. Good trip. Lafayette in NOL was great. Thanks for the tip!

Cheers
 
Anybody know what happened last night? EB sat 7+ hours west of Williston. Nothing in TO. No news that I could find, and nothing on BNSF service advisory page. Freight breakdown?

Cheers
A BNSF grain train struck an unoccupied vehicle on the track near Williston, such that the vehicle could not be readily removed from the lead locomotive.
 
Another spate of back luck for the EB. Bummer. #8 has managed to lose an additional 2 hours after the initial delay just in ND this AM and is now over 10 hours late.

:-((
 
i would guess the freight delays on the hi-line cost bnsf plenty. how much do the late amtraks into chi, pdx and sea cost them? aren't they penalized for late running or is it not done for things out of their control?
What do you mean by penalized? The delays must be expensive to amtrak, since they do have the guaranteed connections and provide hotel, meal and taxi vouchers to folks that get stuck overnight in CHI on late EBs.

Additionally, folks often call customer relations and then receive vouchers for exceedingly late trains. I received what I consider to be a very generous voucher after my long EB trip in July. I used it all very quickly, but most of the tickets I "bought" with the voucher I would have paid cash for. So that is lost revenue, too.
 
i would guess the freight delays on the hi-line cost bnsf plenty. how much do the late amtraks into chi, pdx and sea cost them? aren't they penalized for late running or is it not done for things out of their control?
Just guessing - every time the EB is seriously late into CHI so connections are missed - the vouchers, hotel rooms, hired buses -

That's got to cost more than the revenue for the entire run. That's the cost to Amtrak.

About the BNSF - Warren Buffet and Berkshire Hathaway - the new owners of the HiLine - they've got to be sweating it too. So many derailments this summer - shippers really don't want their cargo on the ground in Montana, they want where they have paid to get it shipped to.

What the BNSF is doing about it - nobody outside of BNSF knows - but I would bet they have a task force - not to help Amtrak as such - but to get the line into shape as a major revenue producer for their whole system.
 
i would guess the freight delays on the hi-line cost bnsf plenty. how much do the late amtraks into chi, pdx and sea cost them? aren't they penalized for late running or is it not done for things out of their control?
What do you mean by penalized?
i thought the host rr had to pay amtrak for late trains. that's what i was wondering about.
 
Anybody know what happened last night? EB sat 7+ hours west of Williston. Nothing in TO. No news that I could find, and nothing on BNSF service advisory page. Freight breakdown?

On a better note, I just did ALY/LAX/NOL/CVS and everything ran on time or even early. Good trip. Lafayette in NOL was great. Thanks for the tip!

Cheers
I was one of the people that recommended the Lafayette so I am glad you liked it! New Orleans is one of my favorite cities and the Lafayette is a charming older hotel that is not fancy, it shows its age in some ways, but the rooms are huge and comfortable and the staff is very cool, and the location is walking distance to the best parts of New Orleans, in my book. Plus it is right on the trolley line, which is both great, you can catch a ride right outside the door and bad, it does screech and squeal a good bit.

On the original subject, the Empire Builder, well I grew up in Glasgow, so I am very supportive of the EB. But Amtrak and BN have to find a way to not only reduce the slowdowns, but to increase the average speed through Montana and North Dakota. It would be great to see what Amtrak could do if they chopped 2-3 hours off the EB times. I don't think it will happen in the short term, but leaving Chicago later and arriving in Seattle at the same time would be sweet, as would leaving Seattle later and arriving in Chicago at nearly the same time. The tough part would be hitting Glacier park while the sun was still shining as frequently as possible.
 
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i would guess the freight delays on the hi-line cost bnsf plenty. how much do the late amtraks into chi, pdx and sea cost them? aren't they penalized for late running or is it not done for things out of their control?
What do you mean by penalized?
i thought the host rr had to pay amtrak for late trains. that's what i was wondering about.
No.

They do get bonus money for keeping Amtrak on time, but no penalties for failing to do so. However, since 2008, Amtrak can now appeal for help in the case of chronic lateness if it seems that the lateness is being caused simply by giving freight priority. And Amtrak has filed against two RR's this year, IIRC, but I don't think any penalties have yet been awarded so far.
 
Anybody know what happened last night? EB sat 7+ hours west of Williston. Nothing in TO. No news that I could find, and nothing on BNSF service advisory page. Freight breakdown?

Cheers
A BNSF grain train struck an unoccupied vehicle on the track near Williston, such that the vehicle could not be readily removed from the lead locomotive.
What fool parked his car on the train track? What was he/she thinking, just want to mess up train ops?
 
Anybody know what happened last night? EB sat 7+ hours west of Williston. Nothing in TO. No news that I could find, and nothing on BNSF service advisory page. Freight breakdown?

Cheers
A BNSF grain train struck an unoccupied vehicle on the track near Williston, such that the vehicle could not be readily removed from the lead locomotive.
What fool parked his car on the train track? What was he/she thinking, just want to mess up train ops?
A fool that had a car breakdown on a grade crossing perhaps?
 
What fool parked his car on the train track? What was he/she thinking, just want to mess up train ops?
A fool that had a car breakdown on a grade crossing perhaps?
One reason my driver's Ed teacher taught us to always go over a crossing with at least 5 MPH of speed. That way, save maybe the transmission falling off at the most inopportune time, you will always have enough forward momentum to clear the tracks should your car stall. And no matter how bad the crossing in terms of bumps, you car can handle those bumps at 5 MPH.
 
The vehicle at the crossing aside the other EBs have been running very late now in BOTH directions. The #7 arrived WFH last night, or should I say this AM, almost 4 hours behind schedule and the eastbound EB this AM is chugging thru ND almost 4 hours behind as well. If you take away the 7 hour delay due to the accident, the #8 that arrived in CHI this AM would still have been almost 4 hours late. We have a new reality of chronic major delays on this route and AMTRAK needs to acknowledge this and make appropriate adjustments. The "heat" is long gone and construction in eastern MT is winding down, yet the lengthy delays continue, in fact are getting worse. My BNSF contacts say the increase in traditional freight traffic (grain and intermodal especially) and the massive increase in energy traffic from ND are significant factors here and it will only get worse as BNSF ramps up even more tanker trains in the coming months (currently weekly movement is 2500 cars, they are targeting 5000 cars a week by mid-2013). It is pointless to have a schedule that is never kept. Not a single #8 train arrived on time in CHI in August or Sept.

:-(((
 
The vehicle at the crossing aside the other EBs have been running very late now in BOTH directions. The #7 arrived WFH last night, or should I say this AM, almost 4 hours behind schedule and the eastbound EB this AM is chugging thru ND almost 4 hours behind as well. If you take away the 7 hour delay due to the accident, the #8 that arrived in CHI this AM would still have been almost 4 hours late. We have a new reality of chronic major delays on this route and AMTRAK needs to acknowledge this and make appropriate adjustments. The "heat" is long gone and construction in eastern MT is winding down, yet the lengthy delays continue, in fact are getting worse. My BNSF contacts say the increase in traditional freight traffic (grain and intermodal especially) and the massive increase in energy traffic from ND are significant factors here and it will only get worse as BNSF ramps up even more tanker trains in the coming months (currently weekly movement is 2500 cars, they are targeting 5000 cars a week by mid-2013). It is pointless to have a schedule that is never kept. Not a single #8 train arrived on time in CHI in August or Sept.

:-(((
Things aren't looking up for the EB, that's for sure.
 
Things aren't looking up for the EB, that's for sure.
Not too bad tonight:

#8(6) arrived Chicago 36 minutes late

#7(6) arrived Seattle 23 minutes early

#8(7) 50 minutes late at Devils Lake, could make that up by Chicago if no further delays

#7(7) on time (4 minutes late) at Libby, MT

All of today's departures (#7, #8, #28) are on time.
 
Not too bad tonight:

#8(6) arrived Chicago 36 minutes late

#7(6) arrived Seattle 23 minutes early

#8(7) 50 minutes late at Devils Lake, could make that up by Chicago if no further delays

#7(7) on time (4 minutes late) at Libby, MT

All of today's departures (#7, #8, #28) are on time.
Yeah, the Builder is definitely unfixable and needs a major schedule change.
 
A schedule change won't fix problems that put the EB 10 hrs late one day and on time the next.
 
My report from #8(12).

On time out of PDX/SEA. 15 minutes early into Spokane, 13 minutes early into Whitefish, 25 minutes early into Shelby, MT. That's almost an hour of padding that should be moved farther east.

20 minutes lost between Havre and Malta due to two long 25 mph sections (tie replacement project)

14 minutes lost between Malta and Glasgow, stopped to meet a grain train

22 minutes lost between Glasgow and Wolf Point, stopped to meet a grain train, then slowing to follow a Z train (priority intermodal) and a stack train.

16 minutes lost between Wolf Point and Williston, as the two trains ahead of us pulled into sidings to let us pass.

No delays between Williston and Minot, made up 20 minutes due to padding at the Minot stop

18 minutes lost between Rugby and Devils Lake, presumably due to the track raise construction (I was asleep)

43 minutes lost between Grand Forks and Fargo. 20 due to slow track, 25 more because we arrived in Fargo at the same time as #7 and had to wait for them to pull clear of the station.

No time lost between Fargo and St. Paul, made up 53 minutes at St. Paul to depart 65 minutes late. That is where I got off, so I can't say why it was two hours late again by Chicago.

All in all a very smooth run, with no mechanical problems or freight breakdowns. The main problems are:

1. Temporary slow orders related to track construction. These total around 40 minutes of time lost, and should be going away as we head into winter.

2. Permanent slow orders between Grand Forks and Fargo. All trains lose at least 20 minutes on this stretch, due to lowered speed limits on very rough track.

3. Freight congestion. This is worst on the long single track between Malta, MT and Williston, ND. Between Glasgow and Wolf Point we followed two freights and every available passing siding had a waiting westbound, leaving no sidings for us to pass the trains in front.

Freight traffic on the line is (by my estimation) about 50% grain, 25% intermodal (containers and trucks), 15% mixed manifest (boxcars, lumber, etc.), 5% coal, and 5% oil. At least in the western section the oil boom can't be blamed for the congestion. We did pass one westbound train of crude oil headed to a Tesoro refinery in Washington (per scanner chatter).

My suggestions for improvement:

1. Stop blaming BNSF. Their dispatchers do a pretty good job keeping #8 moving. Most stretches in Montana require steady 79 mph running with all green lights in order to avoid losing time. To me, that is too much to ask given the amount of freight traffic and limited number of passing sidings.

2. Trim ~45 minutes of padding from the western padded stops (Spokane, Whitefish, Shelby) and add ~45 minutes of schedule padding into Fargo. #7 has better distribution of schedule padding and so has fewer late endpoint arrivals despite experiencing the same delays en route.

3. Restore the track from Fargo to Grand Forks to 79 mph speed instead of the current 50 mph for much of the distance, or adjust the scheduled running time to reflect present speed limits.

4. Add 30-60 minutes to total running time, with most of that added in eastern MT and western ND. This is to reflect the reality of increased freight traffic on the line.

This was my first time traveling in sleeper, and my dad's first time on Amtrak. His only complaint was that rough track (especially in ND) made it difficult to sleep. Also, roomettes are very small.

~Mark
 
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Mark,

Thanks for the detailed notes. I was on #7 that arrived in Seattle 45 minutes early yesterday morning. In fact, we had to wait for the Starlight to clear before we could back into King Street Station. I didn't keep track of our timekeeping as well as you did, but I know that we were 1+ hours down by Browning -- not sure why -- so no views of Glacier Park. But we were about 5 minutes early pulling into Spokane, so we'd made up the time by then.
 
Both #8s doing poorly today - 3hr 38min late out of W Glacier (rock slide near Everett WA) and 3hr 24min late out of Tomah :( And the one hasn't even hit Minot yet where it could drop 4 more hours.
 
The detours in ND are starting. Looks like 8 (14) lost almost two hours on the detour between Minot and Fargo last night. OTOH, 7 (15) didn't lose any time

in the other direction this morning.
 
The detours in ND are starting. Looks like 8 (14) lost almost two hours on the detour between Minot and Fargo last night. OTOH, 7 (15) didn't lose any time

in the other direction this morning.
We have just been informed that tomorrow's EB out of msp has been switched to bustitution. Anyone know why? If time to chi isn't an issue, can you skip the bus and take the late train? Thanks in advance.

joro
 
The detours in ND are starting. Looks like 8 (14) lost almost two hours on the detour between Minot and Fargo last night. OTOH, 7 (15) didn't lose any time

in the other direction this morning.
We have just been informed that tomorrow's EB out of msp has been switched to bustitution. Anyone know why? If time to chi isn't an issue, can you skip the bus and take the late train? Thanks in advance.

joro
I don't know what Amtrak will do in your situation, but last year on a trip from Spokane to Seattle on the EB, the train was hours late into Spokane, and an on - time bus was provided. I had no connections to make in Seattle other than the one my head would make with the pillow in my hotel room :lol: and was able to take the train anyway. So it can be done.
 
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