Elderly lady kicked off Eagle.

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Ryan

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In the US, people keep pit bulls as pets. They are often, evidently, trained to kill. These snub nosed breeds have been known to attack and kill humans.
Andy was very clearly talking about allergies, not getting mauled by a dog. Try again.
 

AmtrakBlue

Conductor
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Well no in your hypothetical, no it isn't. First of all you have no evidence that someone faking an ESA on a train or a plane saved their life. Second, in all your zeroes, there are an infinite number of scenarios where someone else's health, well being or more importantly the safety of flight, or train trip, is threatened.
What you're saying might be an emotional trigger for people here, but it isn't a useful way of framing the issue.
Your reading comprehension wasn’t too good last night.
He’s saying that allowing ESA’s on the trains & planes regardless of if they’re real or fake is infinitely better than denying them all together. He did not say the fake ones saved their owners lives.

And as Ryan stated above, Andy was referring to death by allergic reaction to animals.
 

NSC1109

Service Attendant
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Aug 14, 2016
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Over the years I've noticed posters here are prone to say that any time a conductor forcefully exerts his/her authority it's labelled a "power trip". Makes me wonder how many of those posters have ever been in a position requiring them to forcefully exert their authority over one or more adults when the need arose.

But I can this thread is quickly degenerating into one where the "do-gooders" are pitted against the "get real" crowd.

Carry on.
I’ve been there. Granted, not with Amtrak or any other transportation company, but at the store I currently work at as my college job.

We caught a lady and her three toddlers yesterday shoplifting. All had backpacks. They were reported by two employees who escorted them to the service desk (where I work). My manager and I had to force them to dump everything they had on the counter because they wouldn’t comply. Turned out to be $70 worth of junk food and they had zero money to pay for it. Decided not to call the Sheriff’s Office but told them they were banned for life and then had to force them to leave. Walked them out myself with the woman giving me the evil eye and her kids saying “it wasn’t even that much stuff, they a bunch of *****”.

It’s not a fun thing to do, and it’s hardly a power trip. I won’t say that every instance of someone being thrown off a train isn’t a power trip, but I would think it’s a very small percentage. A lot of the time it’s probably the passengers who’ve earned their one way ticket out of the vestibule doors.
 
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I would actually prefer to sit next to an animal.
Me, too, especially on the crowded and rude Mid-Atlantic part of the NEC.:) Lots of people on NJT travel with service dogs, and if it keeps them calm and less stressed, I'm all for it.
 
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Sorry, the second line above is mine, the first line is what I was trying to quote. Still trying to figure out how to post and answer quotes.

MODERATOR NOTE: The previous post was edited to show your response. :)
 
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flitcraft

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382
I don't blame Amtrak for holding the line on untrained animals. Airlines and airports have had serious problems with untrained animals claimed as ESAs. Even the proponents of ESAs should recognize that the vast majority of claimed ESAs are actually untrained pets, causing real problems for other passengers. I fly a fair bit and have been fortunate to have only been seated next to an ostensible ESA once--on a transcon to Baltimore where a German shepherd barked, whined, and slobbered over me for five and a half hours. The dog peed at one point, soaking the underseat bag of the guy sitting behind him. It was seriously the most miserable flight I ever had. On another flight I was on, an emotional support cat escaped from its owner and ran around the plane, hiding under seats, until finally a flight attendant was able to re-capture it. She was scratched pretty badly in the attempt. And then there are the maulings: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/02/28/an-emotional-support-pit-bull-mauled-year-old-girl-an-airport-terminal-lawsuit-says/?utm_term=.16c659142cb2

Seriously, folks who have medical needs for animals need to get them trained so that they aren't a danger to others. If I were an airline, I'd start by requiring dogs to be muzzled at all times. That way they can provide emotional support without the risk that other passengers will be mauled.
 

Chatter163

OBS Chief
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Aug 26, 2002
Messages
592
2-4 people each month are being thrown off in Alpine? From a train that only operates 3 times a week? That surprising to me.

Does Amtrak ever do internal investigations to see if a conductor acted appropriately? It seems like Amtrak should have at least responded to the reporter with a promise that they'll investigate what happened. Instead they provided a list of all the reasons passengers can be kicked off and gave her a refund.
I also thought the pastor’s claim was questionable, to say the least.

Amtrak may well have said that they will investigate, but that may not have been included in the article, for whatever reason.
 

Chatter163

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592
What seems weird is why involve the police if there's no cause for arrest? .
Nothing weird at all...

1) The conductor would be a fool if he didn’t call the police. As when hotels must evict guests, or any establishment must remove people, it’s always advisable to have police present, as one never knows what the reaction of the evictees will be. In this day and age, one shouldn’t have to elaborate on that.

2). The presence of the police ensures that the eviction is handled properly, with due regard for the safety of all, including the evicted passenger. They can see that the person is given a chance of making calls, finding lodging, etc.

3) I’m fairly sure that disruption on a conveyance is an arrestable offense. Just because the conductor doesn’t look to have the person arrested doesn’t mean that there aren’t grounds for charges. When I worked hotel security, there were many times that we chose not to press charges when asking police to remove and bar someone from the property. Often it wasn’t worth the time, effort, or expense, especially when removing the cause of the disturbance (or the deadbeat, or vandal, or whatever) took care of the immediate problem. We weren’t looking to cause people down on their luck more problems; we just needed them gone and told not to return.
 

Michigan Mom

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Your reading comprehension wasn’t too good last night.
He’s saying that allowing ESA’s on the trains & planes regardless of if they’re real or fake is infinitely better than denying them all together. He did not say the fake ones saved their owners lives.

And as Ryan stated above, Andy was referring to death by allergic reaction to animals.
I'm comprehending fine, maybe misinterpreted the phrase about saving a life.
And if it's a narrow comparison of only death from allergic reaction - then I don't have anything - other than the fact that pet allergies can make people very uncomfortable.
As far as the statement that it's better to allow unlimited fake ESAs as opposed to not allowing them, I must respectfully disagree.
 

RichieRich

Lead Service Attendant
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Dec 2, 2016
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266
Simply do not allow ANY animals...there...no discrimination! Or should we bring back smoking?
 

Skyline

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I don't blame Amtrak for holding the line on untrained animals. Airlines and airports have had serious problems with untrained animals claimed as ESAs. Even the proponents of ESAs should recognize that the vast majority of claimed ESAs are actually untrained pets, causing real problems for other passengers. I fly a fair bit and have been fortunate to have only been seated next to an ostensible ESA once--on a transcon to Baltimore where a German shepherd barked, whined, and slobbered over me for five and a half hours. The dog peed at one point, soaking the underseat bag of the guy sitting behind him. It was seriously the most miserable flight I ever had. On another flight I was on, an emotional support cat escaped from its owner and ran around the plane, hiding under seats, until finally a flight attendant was able to re-capture it. She was scratched pretty badly in the attempt. And then there are the maulings: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/02/28/an-emotional-support-pit-bull-mauled-year-old-girl-an-airport-terminal-lawsuit-says/?utm_term=.16c659142cb2

Seriously, folks who have medical needs for animals need to get them trained so that they aren't a danger to others. If I were an airline, I'd start by requiring dogs to be muzzled at all times. That way they can provide emotional support without the risk that other passengers will be mauled.

The humans need trained as much, if not more, than their animals. But of course if they both go through training together, it's going to be better. That's how it's supposed to work anyway.
 

ScouseAndy

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Mar 23, 2016
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I'm comprehending fine, maybe misinterpreted the phrase about saving a life.
And if it's a narrow comparison of only death from allergic reaction - then I don't have anything - other than the fact that pet allergies can make people very uncomfortable.
As far as the statement that it's better to allow unlimited fake ESAs as opposed to not allowing them, I must respectfully disagree.
Ok so broadening the comparison - exactly how many people traveling by any method of mass transportation was killed or had life changing injuries ( for clarity I dont mean got bitten by a dog and had a preventative rabies or tetanus jab or had a minor allergic reaction) in the USA in the last decade from an animal traveling on board? I'm prepared to bet you could count it on both hands and it's far lower than the number killed or had serious injuries after being assaulted by fellow passengers on board either planes or trains. Perhaps to ensure the safety of everyone we should all be allocated our own jet/carriage to minimise any risk to the public whilst traveling.
 

cocojacoby

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We rode one of the Silver Services once (don't recall if the Meteor or Star) when a lady in the ADA room in the adjacent sleeper took her little dog with her into the dining car and the dog sat on the seat at the table next to her! She didn't seem disabled to us in any way and the dog was certainly not a service dog.

We love dogs but this was an obvious abuse of the rules.
 

ScouseAndy

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We rode one of the Silver Services once (don't recall if the Meteor or Star) when a lady in the ADA room in the adjacent sleeper took her little dog with her into the dining car and the dog sat on the seat at the table next to her! She didn't seem disabled to us in any way and the dog was certainly not a service dog.

We love dogs but this was an obvious abuse of the rules.
Not all disabilities are visible.
 

AmtrakBlue

Conductor
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Not all disabilities are visible.
However, all service animals are trained to take their place on the floor - and use as little space as possible. No service animal should be on the seats.
 

pennyk

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However, all service animals are trained to take their place on the floor - and use as little space as possible. No service animal should be on the seats.
I believe that service animals trained to detect seizures are permitted by Amtrak to sit on the passenger’s lap. I’m not sure if they are permitted to sit on a seat next to the passenger.
 

MARC Rider

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I would personally be more stressed trying to travel with an animal! Ha.
Back when I was in college, I helped my prents move over one vacation. One of my jobs was to drive a car full of stuff we didn't trust to the movers, including the family cat. She was in an improvised, but secure, cat carrier in the back seat. I had the joy of a 100 mile drive accompanied by almost constant aggrieved meowing. And when a cat really feels like it, it can let loose meowing that sounds like the Kitty is being tortured. I still don't know how I kept from driving off the road.

So, yeah, I'd be stressed traveling with a pet.
 

AmtrakBlue

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Back when I was in college, I helped my prents move over one vacation. One of my jobs was to drive a car full of stuff we didn't trust to the movers, including the family cat. She was in an improvised, but secure, cat carrier in the back seat. I had the joy of a 100 mile drive accompanied by almost constant aggrieved meowing. And when a cat really feels like it, it can let loose meowing that sounds like the Kitty is being tortured. I still don't know how I kept from driving off the road.

So, yeah, I'd be stressed traveling with a pet.
My friend moved from NM to DE with 7 cats in her car. Naturally she had sedation meds for them.

For me, the move with our two cats was only about 30 looooong minutes.
 

Michigan Mom

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Health departments have regs, I think, about live animals near food so I'm not sure about the sitting-at-table scenario (certainly next to owner, on floor, no problem).
 

Michigan Mom

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Ok so broadening the comparison - exactly how many people traveling by any method of mass transportation was killed or had life changing injuries ( for clarity I dont mean got bitten by a dog and had a preventative rabies or tetanus jab or had a minor allergic reaction) in the USA in the last decade from an animal traveling on board? I'm prepared to bet you could count it on both hands and it's far lower than the number killed or had serious injuries after being assaulted by fellow passengers on board either planes or trains. Perhaps to ensure the safety of everyone we should all be allocated our own jet/carriage to minimise any risk to the public whilst traveling.
Ok.. explain it to me like I'm 5. Are you saying that humans are more dangerous? I suppose you have a point there, I'm just not understanding why that would support opening the doors, so to speak... to allow any and all animals on board.
 

PVD

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Certain service animals are exempt from the seat regulations. They need to be in certain positions to do there job, seizure anticipation or diabetic awareness would be the 2 most common of that type. The diabetic dogs work by noticing variations in the persons breath. They may look just like you or me, or anyone else, but have a totally legit disability with a dog trained to provide valuable assistance. Other than the dogs that need to be in special positions to do their job, all others are required to be on the floor, they are allowed in all public areas including food service areas, there are very few places they can not go. (like in a swimming pool, but they would be allowed on the pool deck)
 

Ryan

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Apr 14, 2008
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17,017
That doesn't look like an argument "to allow any and all animals onboard" either.
 
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