Empire Builder accident (9/25/21)

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I used to think I would never be sea sick, I have been on Lomprayah ferries to Ko Tao and Ko Phangan in pretty rough seas and was ok, sailed on a tall ship (the Golden Hinde) in fairly rough weather and went deep sea fishing a time or two.
Then I saw a Greek Blue Star ferry trying to arrive in Naxos after a trip from Athens. The ferry hove to off the entrance to the port and was doing a gut churning dance where the bow was doing circles in the air that were about 20 yards high and an equal distance side to side. Plus it was rolling 25 or 30 degrees to port then starboard. And it was an irregular pattern.
I was on the pier waiting to leave but when the ferry took off back to Piraeus I really didn't mind spending another day in Naxos town. Even at 18-20 knots the ferry was still rolling like a pig when it went out of sight.
If discussing food is "requirement", the Sheftalia (Cypriot type sausage) at Kozi just off the marina was outstanding. They serve it with mild grilled green peppers if you ask for them.

John Santos said:
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The only time I've ever been sea-sick was on one of the older Boston-Provincetown ferries. It was the first trip after a storm the night before. The first 3rd (about half an hour) was fine as we sailed past the harbor islands to the entry to the harbor. Then the middle third was very rough until we got into the shelter of Cape Cod. I had missed lunch and got a snack, a bagel and a cup of coffee, from the snack bar. I had almost made it back to my seat, balancing the bagel on top of the coffee cup with one hand and trying to hold onto the seats of other passengers with the other, when we hit the open water and my bagel went flying! Most of the very hot coffee sloshed out onto my hand and the floor. (Why they didn't have lids, I don't know...) A few seconds later, I was too sick to eat or drink anyway. It got a little better when we reached the smoother water near P-Town, but I was still woozie. Then, 5 minutes ashore, I was totally fine, and my friends who picked me up there took me straight to Moby Dick's in Wellfleet for a terrific, enormous sea food late lunch/early dinner. (I know it's an AU requirement to always discuss food whenever possible.)

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Cal said:
"This accident and the death and destruction it caused was entirely preventable. Sadly, the September 25, 2021 derailment of Empire Builder Train 7/27 is but another in a long list of devastating and fatal train derailments caused by the negligence and carelessness of Defendants Amtrak and BNSF. "

The cause of the accident hasn't been released yet. :/
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Just warming up for the Lottery Wheel spin!
 
John Santos said:
One thing NASA discovered way back during the Gemini program in the 1960's was how useful putting handles and handrails on everything is when you don't have stable gravity to hold you and things in place. It was only on the final Gemini flight that they put it all together and Buzz Aldrin (a hero of mine) was able to conduct the first truly successful EVA. He had lots of handles and rails (and places to put his feet) to hook onto and to grip. On all the previous space walks, the astronauts came literal close to death whenever they tried to do anything. Dangerously high pulse rates and blood pressure whenever they tried to move themselves to use any tools. Having something to hold onto made all the difference in the world. (Or all the difference out of this world!)

The same thing applies on any unstable mode of transportation, including trains on bumpy tracks, buses and boats. I've noticed the lack of places to grab in many of the older coaches and in the aisles in the sleepers. I hope the new VL2's and Amfleet replacements have many more of them, and when they refurbish the old Viewliners and Superliner, they add them wherever possible. It's pretty cheap and great for people with ordinary mobility, let alone mobility-impaired people.

The only time I've ever been sea-sick was on one of the older Boston-Provincetown ferries. It was the first trip after a storm the night before. The first 3rd (about half an hour) was fine as we sailed past the harbor islands to the entry to the harbor. Then the middle third was very rough until we got into the shelter of Cape Cod. I had missed lunch and got a snack, a bagel and a cup of coffee, from the snack bar. I had almost made it back to my seat, balancing the bagel on top of the coffee cup with one hand and trying to hold onto the seats of other passengers with the other, when we hit the open water and my bagel went flying! Most of the very hot coffee sloshed out onto my hand and the floor. (Why they didn't have lids, I don't know...) A few seconds later, I was too sick to eat or drink anyway. It got a little better when we reached the smoother water near P-Town, but I was still woozie. Then, 5 minutes ashore, I was totally fine, and my friends who picked me up there took me straight to Moby Dick's in Wellfleet for a terrific, enormous sea food late lunch/early dinner. (I know it's an AU requirement to always discuss food whenever possible.)

I've ridden other. newer B-P (and other) ferries since and noticed the seats usually have handles in the upper corners of their backs, which I now truly appreciate. I hope the new Amtrak coaches, diners and observation cars have the same. (I took a train once or twice with a new VL2 diner (being used as a sleeper lounge), but didn't notice whether it had hand-holds on the seats or partitions.)
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Back in the day you coulda flown Provincetown-Boston Airline (PBA) that I used to work for. But no bagels and coffee????
 
It's inevitable there will be a settlement of some sort. No trial, just ambulance chasers trying to get something for their clients to claim success and publicity, setting themselves up for the next opportunity, and Amtrak and/or BNSF settling to make it all go away.
 
Having been on site during three NTSB investigations during my career I have observed the professional investigators gathering evidence. In each investigation the outcome ( the Report ) took years. And the most important element of the report is the recommendations to avoid the accident. Sometimes it is Human, or mechanical or a mix of both. If a regulation can be crafted to avoid the accident....the regulation will be proposed ( published ) .....and after comments ....and testimony...It becomes regulation ...This system has served the private and public transportation sectors well. Think Positive Train Control, all of my experience was spent in the Maritime Industry but the outcome is the same.. next time you go to a library ask to see the Codes of Federal Regulations a massive regulatory
publication that provides us protections as citizens of the United states. ( all of these NTSB investigations are open to public view..)
 
Defendants will file a motion to dismiss, plaintiffs will amend their complaint. Filling first definitely seems to have been the objective - as long as the courts reward that, folks will continue to slap something together and rush to get it filed.
 
Apparently one's culpability varies directly with the depth of one's pockets........... :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I'm thinking that the lawsuit was filed because the standard of proof is much lower in civil cases (preponderance of evidence) than in criminal cases (beyond a reasonable doubt). I'm not saying for one second that anyone at Amtrak or BNSF is (or should be) criminally liable; I'm just pointing out that it's generally easier to win a lawsuit because the evidentiary standard is lower.

In other words, the plaintiff(s) might be thinking, "well if we can't get them sent to jail or prison, we'll make them pay financially".
 
Either BNSF or Amtrak is clearly at fault here unless there was an earthquake. The lawsuit names Amtrak because Amtrak will pay even if BNSF is at fault. This came up in the Cayce SC crash. The following article provides some interesting context. Short summary of the article is basically that Amtrak agrees to take on liability for freight railroad foulups to try to maintain a decent working relationship.

‘No-Fault’ Pacts with Railroads Hold Amtrak Liable for Accidents It Didn’t Cause (insurancejournal.com)
 
Exvalley said:
These guys have been extremely successful in the past. I would not be so quick to brush them off.
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Just because some lawyer succeeds does not make it less laughable. It just reduces the credibility of the legal system, which at present hangs on a precipice anyway. ;) I find this particularly entertaining given how the US takes a much holier than though attitude when they go after criticizing other country's legal systems, not to say that any of them are great or better or anything like that. But still the business about glass houses comes to mind from time to time.
 
jis said:
Just because some lawyer succeeds does not make it less laughable. It just reduces the credibility of the legal system, which at present hangs on a precipice anyway. ;) I find this particularly entertaining given how the US takes a much holier than though attitude when they go after criticizing other country's legal systems, not to say that any of them are great or better or anything like that. But still the business about glass houses comes to mind from time to time.
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Our lawsuit standards need to be seriously overhauled. IF they can prove negligence, then of course someone should be coughing up some dough. But the preliminary report isn’t even out yet. We have no idea what happened other than Amtrak was traveling below the speed limit and they derailed before reaching EBCS Buelow.
 
I always remember this one when talking about crazy lawsuits. Can't find anything about a settlement, so hopefully it was thrown out.

Brenda Hurff of Washington Township, New Jersey, filed suit for $100,000 in damages after a fire was started in her kitchen by “unattended food.” Apparently, Mrs. Hurff had put a cherry Pop-Tart in her toaster and had forgotten about it, as she left home to take her children to school. When she returned, about 20 minutes later, she found firefighters extinguishing her flaming kitchen. Despite the warning on the Pop-Tart box not to “leave the toaster appliance unattended due to possible risk of fire,” Mrs. Hurff is suing Kellogg’s and Black & Decker, maker of the toaster, for damages.
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https://www.pasadenastarnews.com/20...eed-warnings-may-lead-to-further-disclaimers/
 
josephr33 said:
Either BNSF or Amtrak is clearly at fault here unless there was an earthquake. The lawsuit names Amtrak because Amtrak will pay even if BNSF is at fault. This came up in the Cayce SC crash. The following article provides some interesting context. Short summary of the article is basically that Amtrak agrees to take on liability for freight railroad foulups to try to maintain a decent working relationship.

‘No-Fault’ Pacts with Railroads Hold Amtrak Liable for Accidents It Didn’t Cause (insurancejournal.com)
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I wouldn’t say clearly. Probable, sure, but not clearly. It does remind me of the Sabotage of the sunset, as they both happened in a remote location. But I don’t expect it to be related.
 
josephr33 said:
Either BNSF or Amtrak is clearly at fault here unless there was an earthquake. The lawsuit names Amtrak because Amtrak will pay even if BNSF is at fault. This came up in the Cayce SC crash. The following article provides some interesting context. Short summary of the article is basically that Amtrak agrees to take on liability for freight railroad foulups to try to maintain a decent working relationship.

‘No-Fault’ Pacts with Railroads Hold Amtrak Liable for Accidents It Didn’t Cause (insurancejournal.com)
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Maybe not an earthquake but possibly high winds? Though if they know about high winds they usually slow down, I believe.
 
Well, I liked the passenger's take in the video so much that I just booked my winter trip on the EB/LSL, to see my Sis in Boston (leaving WIH on Jan 9, return trip form BOS on Feb 4). Yep, I'll be at the back of the train, and probably in my roomette much of the time. I carefully noted the good advice here and there in this thread about protecting yourself in case of derailment. If anything happens (I'm predicting it won't, and trying to be prepared if it does), I'll be aware... and I won't be suing.
 

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