Empire Builder Seattle Turn

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ray828

ray828

Train Attendant
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
72
Location
Chicagoland
With the reduced schedule due to Covid, does the #7 Builder still turn the same day in Seattle to become #8?
 
Thank you. Is the same trainset used on the days there's a same day arrival and departure? Or is there a different set that goes out and the set that comes in goes out on a different day's departure?
 
I walked by King Street earlier this evening and there was a EB set parked at the station on one of the “storage” tracks. So clearly one set isn’t making a same day turn.
 
sitzplatz17 said:
I walked by King Street earlier this evening and there was a EB set parked at the station on one of the “storage” tracks. So clearly one set isn’t making a same day turn.
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A quick look at the thrice a week operation timetable that is in effect currently shows that indeed during the three times a week operation the turn is overnight, since there are lots of free rolling stock.

During daily operations the turn used to be on the same day leading to interesting reliability problems. There were talks off and on for adding an additional consist to make it possible to do an overnight turn, and was done from time to time. But in order to achieve that some other train had to be short changed..
 
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TrackWalker said:
The Seattle-Vancouver, BC trainset uses Talgo equipment.
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Well, right now it uses nothing because it’s not running.

When it returns (after the border opens and COVID travel restrictions are eased), it will probably use Horizon equipment of some sort, depending on the specific equipment rotation, because the Talgo VI trains have been retired and there are only two Oregon-owned Talgo VIII trains (so, I suppose they could get rotated onto the train that overnights in VAC, but I’d doubt Oregon would want one of their trains stuck on the day rotation to VAC).
 
F900ElCapitan said:
I saw a picture of Portland Union Station with what the photographer claimed as the Coast Starlight and two Empire Builder sets. Are they keeping a protection set in Portland?
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During the oil industry related clusterflub in Montana on the High Line, the Empire Builder was running with an additional consist that allowed overnight turn in Seattle and Portland. During that period if a train by some good luck arrived on time, there would be a window of about six hours or so when there would be two consists present in Seattle and Portland. Perhaps it was on one of those lucky days.
 
Normal practice right now ought to be a same-day turn on Saturday only, with the Monday and Wednesday arrivals having 30-hour turns.

Meanwhile the Coast Starlight has a single-overnight turn Tues night/Wed morning, and 38-hour layovers Thurs night to Sat morning and Sat night to Mon morning.

That almost makes sense, schedulewise: that means that there is always one, but never two, trains needing stored overnight in Seattle (EB Mon and Wed night, CS Tue,Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun night.)

---

When it ran daily, I am told that Amtrak plans for it to take six sets, though only five are needed under normal circumstances. I've never seen the 'extra' set sitting in Seattle instead of Chicago myself, but I can imagine there were a few times it was put there if there was a reason to expect the westbound to be 6 hours late repeatedly.
 
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Oddly it seems like there’s another EB set parked at King Street again this evening (Thursday night) but I don’t see a CS set.
Granted, I didn’t use the Weller Street bridge today to get a solid look, but usually the direction the consist is facing is a solid indication from afar.
The EB sets face north with the engine(s) closest to the station on the stub tracks, and the CS sets face south with two engines farthest from the station building.
So either it was a set of Superliners hanging out sans loco, or a EB set.
 
It may well be there is so much idle equipment right now that it is being stored in various places it usually wouldn't be. (When you say "another" EB, are we sure it is cycling in and out of service, vs. the same one parked there for the duration?)

Incidentally, where are the consists turned in Seattle? Looking in Google Earth, the most convenient wye seems to be the entrance to the West Seattle bridge... but it's far enough away that turning must consume a big chunk of time.
 
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It takes 6 days to get to Chicago and back, so a year ago they had 6 sets running the empire builder when they were running daily. (well maybe 5)

Now they are only running 3 times per week, so only need 3 sets. Where should they keep the extra equipment?
 
If arriving and departing per the timetable, the same trainset would have 6hr 15min to get rid of its pax and bags, get cleaned, restocked, reverse direction and then load its pax and bags for the return trip. Is that really enough enough time to do all that?

Wouldn't the 3X a week Covid schedule just mean there's more time to do the extra cleaning required? If so, seems to me there may not be any (or as much) extra equipment. It's just that the turnaround time for each set could increased by 24 hours.
 
niemi24s said:
If arriving and departing per the timetable, the same trainset would have 6hr 15min to get rid of its pax and bags, get cleaned, restocked, reverse direction and then load its pax and bags for the return trip. Is that really enough enough time to do all that?

Wouldn't the 3X a week Covid schedule just mean there's more time to do the extra cleaning required? If so, seems to me there may not be any (or as much) extra equipment. It's just that the turnaround time for each set could increased by 24 hours.
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Notwithstanding all of that, there is a same day turn even now on Saturday. See the current timetable that I have provided links to.

When running daily, normally it did a same day turn, so clearly it is quite possible to do it, provided the train does not arrive too late.
 
jis said:
Notwithstanding all of that, there is a same day turn even now on Saturday.
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But does that necessarily mean the trainset arriving on Saturday morning is the same trainset that departs six hours later that same Saturday?

If there's another or "extra" trainset in Seattle as others have alluded and it was ready to go, why wouldn't that one be used instead of the one that arrived six hours earlier on Saturday morning?
 
niemi24s said:
But does that necessarily mean the trainset arriving on Saturday morning is the same trainset that departs six hours later that same Saturday?
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Perhaps; I am not there to see firsthand what they are doing.

If there's another or "extra" trainset in Seattle as others have alluded and it was ready to go, why wouldn't that one be used instead of the one that arrived six hours earlier on Saturday morning?
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To my mind, it would make more sense to take the extra set completely out of service (remove all the consumables, drain the water tanks so they can't freeze, etc) and park it on a storage track for several months, rather than having sets rotate in after sitting for 3 days each (Arrive Mo-leave Th, Arrive We-leave Sa, Arrive Sa-leave Tu).

The exception, of course, is if the Saturday train arrives several hours late; then you'd really like having the extra set on hand.

Today's train (left Chicago on the 4th) arrived 30 minutes early this morning. If anyone caught this Builder on a webcam in the past 2 days, we can see if tonight's departure has the same equipment or not, and settle the question.
 
Since it's Saturday I decided to take a longer walk and head over to SoDo and see what I can observe from Holgate Street crossing that pretty much goes through the middle of the Amtrak/Sounder Seattle coach yard.

On the far West side of the yard right by Holgate I did see two Builder sets* side by side and one CS set** on the furthest track to the West. It looked like one of the sets was being prepped and I did see a fuel truck next to the loco.
I unfortunately missed the arrival of the Builder this morning so I won't be able to confirm if the same set is going to head out this afternoon. But I will try and go on another walk around 16:20 to take a look and try and get the loco number of the set leaving today.

What unusual today is that there are no sets being stored at the station. Once the 2:20 Cascades left for Eugene the station was totally train-less for the first time I've seen in awhile. (aside from the two old Talgo sets rusting away on Platform 1)

* I'm assuming these were Builder sets since the make up of both was:
P42-ViewBaggage-Transition Sleeper-Sleeper-Diner-Coach-Coach

**P42-P42-TransitionSleeper-Sleeper-Diner-Sightseer-Coach-Coach-Coach Baggage

Sorry I don't have any pictures, it's not really the best part of town and I was trying to be discreet and keep moving. 🙃

edit: just checked and 155 is leading today’s departure out of SEA
 
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In the grand scheme of things, I suppose it doesn't really matter if there were two EB trainsets in SEA on one particular Saturday around noon because the situation could well change from week to week.
 
niemi24s said:
In the grand scheme of things, I suppose it doesn't really matter if there were two EB trainsets in SEA on one particular Saturday around noon because the situation could well change from week to week.
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Heh heh. On a grand scheme of things I think we have spent more brain power on this here than Amtrak has collectively in doing whatever random things they happen to do 🤪
 
Siegmund said:
To my mind, it would make more sense to take the extra set completely out of service (remove all the consumables, drain the water tanks so they can't freeze, etc) and park it on a storage track for several months, rather than having sets rotate in after sitting for 3 days each (Arrive Mo-leave Th, Arrive We-leave Sa, Arrive Sa-leave Tu).
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Based on years in the airplane & munitions maintenance business, in my mind the best thing do do with any "extra" trainset would be to keep it in use as much as possible. Airplanes, at least, tended to suffer from not being used regularly because they didn't receive quite the same amount of attention as when flying on a regular schedule. They were designed to be used. On the other hand, munitions were designed to function reliably after decades and decades of storage.

I'm sure most any crew chief would rather his/her airplane be on the flying schedule or loaded and on alert rather be the hangar queen. YMMV, as always.

[Edit] Too cold up here to do much outside, so went through the LD timetables and calculated all of the shortest turnaround times for the same trainset at the endpoints. Here are the ones with less than 6hr 15min for the EB at SEA:

• 4hr 15min for the SM at NYP
• 3hr 0min for the CL at WAS
• 0hr 29min for the CRES at NYP
 
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