"European style" sleeper car?

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TimePeace

Disillusioned.
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
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Maybe there's already been such a discussion - if so please point me to it -

What about a new design car, with a large compartment with stacked bunk beds (3 high?) and curtains to pull closed - maybe three rows of them with two aisles? and a couple of shower rooms and bathrooms/changing rooms to share - not the privacy of a roomette but a way to lie horizontally instead of trying to sleep in coach - and fit in more people than a sleeper car, therefor a price point somewhere between private rooms and coach??

Meals would not be included but still available for purchase -

-David
 
I always wondered if the reason that Britain and North America lack this sort of accommodation is that both countries have a far greater sense of personal space, and less of a liking of communal facilities, than a lot of places in Mainland Europe and Asia.

I can imagine many travelers in both places not being that comfortable with traveling in this way. However, it's probably much less the case for Students and Young people in general, so if it made economic sense to provide a niche that do want such accommodation a carriage or two in a few individual cases, then I would see no reason why not to.
 
I remember as a wee lad in 1966 taking the gasping Erie Lackawanna, Phoebe Snow, up the southern tier of New York State and seem to remember that type of configuration in a car that I walked through. I also think I rememmber something similiar on legacy equipment Amtrak was running in 1975 on the Montrealer. Then there is the old I Love Lucy show that had a similiar setting when the Ricardos and Mertz's were on a train trip. :p
 
Remember that the current prices reflect not necessarily the costs of Amtrak offering sleeping car accomodations, but they reflect Amtrak having fewer sleeping cars than Amtrak might like (especially on the single level eastern routes, where Amtrak wanted 100 Viewliner Sleepers and got 50) and what people are willing to pay for the limited number of roomettes; essentially, the sleeping compartments go to the highest bidders.

Some of the savings of a new class would be offset by the need to maintain more types of cars, unless the approach was to retrofit all of the existing Viewliners. But if the new class was retrofitted into the Viewliners, omitting meals for that class might not be so simple.

If the roomette next to the shower was ripped out and replaced with two toilets, and then two roomettes in that general area of the car were converted to three beds each, the total theoretical capacity of the car wouldn't go up any, but it would provide a way for single travelers to book just a bed instead of having to take up and pay for two beds. But I'm not sure how you handle daytime seating for those single travelers. You probably need to find them a seat somewhere else on the train to use during the day. And pretty soon, you're not saving very much floor space at all vs just giving that person their own roomette as is done now.
 
I always wondered if the reason that Britain and North America lack this sort of accommodation is that both countries have a far greater sense of personal space,
On that same note, hosteling never really took off in the USA like it did in Europe. There are hostels in the USA, but mainly on popular hiking routes, or in cities, and rarely ever use the name "Hostel". Instead, using budget accomodations, or "activity centers".

I assumed it was for the same reason. Greater sense of personal space.
 
Another type of accommodation worth trying would be the airliner business class lie-flat type seats for a class of accommodation that is between current coach/business class and roomettes. Such could acutally be easily accommodated even in the NJT style multi-level cars quite effectively, leaving enough room for some baggage too since these are by nature lower density layouts. This could be the modern day version of Slumbercoach. But again the space thing in US might gravitate against this approach too.
 
Maybe there's already been such a discussion - if so please point me to it -
What about a new design car, with a large compartment with stacked bunk beds (3 high?) and curtains to pull closed - maybe three rows of them with two aisles? and a couple of shower rooms and bathrooms/changing rooms to share - not the privacy of a roomette but a way to lie horizontally instead of trying to sleep in coach - and fit in more people than a sleeper car, therefor a price point somewhere between private rooms and coach??

Meals would not be included but still available for purchase -

-David
via rail has berths, seems like they don't cut out meals tho

http://www.viarail.ca/classes/en_serv_visi_cosu.html
 
via rail has berths, seems like they don't cut out meals tho
http://www.viarail.ca/classes/en_serv_visi_cosu.html
Yes both the Manor series and the Chateau series sleepers used on the Canadian have 6 section berths (3 upper and 3 lower) as shown in the Visit the Cars - Sleeping Car page. And indeed those traveling in the section do get meals included in the fare. They would have no real way of separating them anyhow since the trains operate almost as two separate trains, one the sleeper section with a Diner and a Skydome per about 4 cars (with each passenger assigned to a specific Diner) and the second one the so called Comfort Class or coach section with its own food service car which happens also to be a Skydome on the Canadian.
 
What about a new design car, with a large compartment with stacked bunk beds (3 high?) and curtains to pull closed
I don't think that would be a new design, but a resurrection of an old one. Plenty of examples in old movies and TV shows, sometimes with hilarious results, e.g. Laurel & Hardy, The Honeymooners.
 
Maybe there's already been such a discussion - if so please point me to it -
What about a new design car, with a large compartment with stacked bunk beds (3 high?) and curtains to pull closed - maybe three rows of them with two aisles? and a couple of shower rooms and bathrooms/changing rooms to share - not the privacy of a roomette but a way to lie horizontally instead of trying to sleep in coach - and fit in more people than a sleeper car, therefor a price point somewhere between private rooms and coach??

Meals would not be included but still available for purchase -

-David

a Slumber coach may be a better design idea.

Bob
 
What about a new design car, with a large compartment with stacked bunk beds (3 high?) and curtains to pull closed
I don't think that would be a new design, but a resurrection of an old one. Plenty of examples in old movies and TV shows, sometimes with hilarious results, e.g. Laurel & Hardy, The Honeymooners.
On my overnight trip in such a 6-bunk compartment on the SNCF (France), I stayed up late playing several chess games with a compartment-mate. We were all each in our own bunks, of course, there being no space to be elsewhere. I had a little travel chess set where the pieces had pegs fitting into the board, so we could pass it up and and all around the compartment without the pieces falling off. The other four folks passed the board around between moves as they handed it between the players, "watching the game". We all knew each other, as it happened, being students on the same academic program, but I could imagine similar camaraderie among strangers too. Great fun, great memories. (I have no recollection of who won the chess games, though!)
 
Then there is the old I Love Lucy show that had a similiar setting when the Ricardos and Mertz's were on a train trip. :p
Honestly, that was the immediate image that came to my mind, when I started to read this thread.

Though, I also remember another I Love Lucy episode where it seemed that they had 20x20 private compartment in another train. :D
 
Maybe there's already been such a discussion - if so please point me to it -
What about a new design car, with a large compartment with stacked bunk beds (3 high?) and curtains to pull closed - maybe three rows of them with two aisles? and a couple of shower rooms and bathrooms/changing rooms to share - not the privacy of a roomette but a way to lie horizontally instead of trying to sleep in coach - and fit in more people than a sleeper car, therefor a price point somewhere between private rooms and coach??

Meals would not be included but still available for purchase -

-David
Here ya go.....................

http://www.imdb.com/video/hulu/vi2922250265/
 
I don't see why the current system with the rooms and roomettes needs to be changed. Sure it may need refurbed, updated, new car deisgned. But I think the overall system itself works just fine.
 
After graduating from college in 1971, I spent 2 months traveling in Europe by rail. I enjoyed the "couchetts" which are open bay style no frills sleeping accomodations. I also travel in a second class Wagon Lit compartment on the Direct Orient from Istanbul to Paris. The guy who shared my compartment was a Swiss college student and traveled from Istanbul to Lausanne. He had come from Beruit to Haydarpasa (across from Istanbul) on the Taurus Express. The Direct Orient had no restaurant car until Venice but had long stops in Sofia and Belgrad where you could have meals in the station. My compartment mate knew enough of the slavic languages so that we could order food on the long stops. Since I didn't know the languages, it was very helpful. I kept in touch with the guy for a number of years and he visited me in the US. I only traveled first class Wagon Lit once as it was very expensive even with a 1st class Eurorail pass. I think a "no frills" sleeping car similar to couchettes or something similar would be great for Amtrak to attract those on budgets such as students, foreign travelers, senior citizens and others. Amtrak needs to think "out of the box" with the current economic situation in the US.
 
I was always wondering why there aren't any couchette cars. In Europe this is by far the most popular category on an overnight train. There is one attendant per car a single level car has 60 bunks, compared to the 62 seats a Superliner has on the upper level. A sucharge is usually about $ 25/Night and makes a few night trains more profitable than day trains on the same route.

Personally, I 'm a frequent Couchette (or CC) rider in Europe and do not consider myself able to pay $541 for a roomette on the CZ next july.

I'd spend an extra $50 on the same route without hesitating.
 
Personally, I 'm a frequent Couchette (or CC) rider in Europe and do not consider myself able to pay $541 for a roomette on the CZ next july.I'd spend an extra $50 on the same route without hesitating.
I think your assumption of the accommodation charge is a bit optimistic.

Would you pay $539 for a couchette over $541 for a roomette? Or more likely, would you pay $641 for a couchette, because the couchette would require a premium to result in a high enough return on Amtrak's investment on completely new cars?
 
Or more likely, would you pay $641 for a couchette, because the couchette would require a premium to result in a high enough return on Amtrak's investment on completely new cars?
Since when does Amtrak take the amount of capital investment into consideration for pricing its tickets?

Operationally a couchette type accommodation should not cost a heck of a lot more than LD coach. Remember that typically no bedding is provided on typical couchettes. You just get a bunk and perhaps an airline style pillow and blanket.
 
Since when does Amtrak take the amount of capital investment into consideration for pricing its tickets?
Operationally a couchette type accommodation should not cost a heck of a lot more than LD coach. Remember that typically no bedding is provided on typical couchettes. You just get a bunk and perhaps an airline style pillow and blanket.
Since when does Amtrak match its fares on what European railroads charge?

Look at how much Amtrak charges for BC on routes where on board BC is really nothing more than a 1/2 size can of warm soda. I really doubt Amtrak would charge less of a premium for a couchette bunk, than they do for BC.
 
Since when does Amtrak match its fares on what European railroads charge?
Look at how much Amtrak charges for BC on routes where on board BC is really nothing more than a 1/2 size can of warm soda. I really doubt Amtrak would charge less of a premium for a couchette bunk, than they do for BC.
First of all I said nothing about Amtrak matching European anything, so that is a red herring. All that I said is Amtrak does not reflect capital costs of cars in the accommodation charges.

Yes, Amtrak will charge something sort of of the order of what they charge for BC or a bit more perhaps. But my guess is it will be nothing like the numbers that you are throwing around. If 50 or 60 berths can be fit in a car, the charge would be of the order of BC charges is my guess.

But then again these are guesses and speculations anyway, since it is not clear that Amtrak has any plans at all to go downb this route anytime soon.
 
Since when does Amtrak take the amount of capital investment into consideration for pricing its tickets?
I would hope that someone in Amtrak does a business plan for any major capital investment.

To build couchette cars instead of new dining cars. To build couchette cars instead of new Viewliner cars. To build couchette cars instead of new Superliner cars. To build couchette cars instead of new coach cars. All that would all have to be based on Amtrak projecting that couchette cars will generate more revenue than all those other options.

I would think that to be able to make such a business case successfully, such a plan would have to be based on the public being willing and able to pay a rather hefty premium.

I have to agree we here are just guess as to the dollar amount a hefty premium would be, but I don't think it would be just $50 on a LD train.
 
Where do pax sit during the day in a couchette configuration? I've always thought that there needs to be some sort of inbetween service between coach and roomette. Something a bit less pricey, and a bit more comfy without the "first class" fanfare...

Even Business Class on Viewliner trainsets would be nice.
 
Where do pax sit during the day in a couchette configuration? I've always thought that there needs to be some sort of inbetween service between coach and roomette. Something a bit less pricey, and a bit more comfy without the "first class" fanfare...
Even Business Class on Viewliner trainsets would be nice.
IIRC the beds fold into seats for daytime travel. Tho would they be as confortable as an amtrak coach seat?

Are there many european multi-day trips? The only one i've been on was an overnight service in Italy, which didn't really have a "day" part to it - we got to our desintation at around 7-8am, having left maybe 11pm the previous night.
 
I always wondered if the reason that Britain and North America lack this sort of accommodation is that both countries have a far greater sense of personal space, and less of a liking of communal facilities, than a lot of places in Mainland Europe and Asia.
I can imagine many travelers in both places not being that comfortable with traveling in this way. However, it's probably much less the case for Students and Young people in general, so if it made economic sense to provide a niche that do want such accommodation a carriage or two in a few individual cases, then I would see no reason why not to.
People are probably ok with using that sort of accommodation for one night, I doubt there is a trip in Europe that goes into 2 nights and 3 days like the LD trains in the US.
 
Where do pax sit during the day in a couchette configuration? I've always thought that there needs to be some sort of inbetween service between coach and roomette. Something a bit less pricey, and a bit more comfy without the "first class" fanfare...
Slumbercoach...
 
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