Fall 2017 Amtrak Cascades schedule

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CHamilton

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WSDOT Secretary Roger Millar and Rail Division Operations Manager Jason Biggs publicly unveiled the new Amtrak Cascades schedules at the AAWA picnic meeting in Lacey today (Aug 12). WSDOT and Amtrak are looking at early December to implement the new service with 3:20 running times and contractual guarantee of 88% on time performance from BNSF (though delays outside BNSF's control that will not be counted against them). The attached schedule does not include the Thruway bus connections. Nineteen of the 20 infrastructure projects are complete. Only the new Tacoma Dome Amtrak Station and the Tacoma trestle remain to be finished.

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I assume those different train numbers south of PDX are merely due to the difference in days of the week, and that on days when both segments run passengers will get a one seat ride?
 
I assume those different train numbers south of PDX are merely due to the difference in days of the week, and that on days when both segments run passengers will get a one seat ride?
I don't know. There used to be cross-platform transfers at PDX for some connections, due to operational requirements.
 
I assume those different train numbers south of PDX are merely due to the difference in days of the week, and that on days when both segments run passengers will get a one seat ride?
I don't know. There used to be cross-platform transfers at PDX for some connections, due to operational requirements.
I'm thinking the only thru train for a one-seat ride is highlighted in soft lavender-blue, color-keyed to the Oregon Department of Transportation. That's my interpretation; unsourced.
 
I assume those different train numbers south of PDX are merely due to the difference in days of the week, and that on days when both segments run passengers will get a one seat ride?
I don't know. There used to be cross-platform transfers at PDX for some connections, due to operational requirements.
I'm thinking the only thru train for a one-seat ride is highlighted in soft lavender-blue, color-keyed to the Oregon Department of Transportation. That's my interpretation; unsourced.
That is the Coast Starlight. So yes, but not related to ODOT.
 
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Speculation -- It May be the connecting train setup is for equipment rotations. You can either run the train set thru just a train number change or substitute it go to train scheduled to SEA. SEA train to go south ?
 
All Aboard Washington posts on Facebook

WSDOT Secretary Roger Millar and Rail Division Operations Manager Jason Biggs publicly unveiled the new Amtrak Cascades schedules ... looking at early December to implement the new service ... Nineteen of the 20 infrastructure projects are complete. Only the new Tacoma Dome Amtrak Station and the Tacoma trestle remain to be finished.
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20767909_10155366216854892_4721487675809326783_n.jpg
Whoa!!! Closer study of the various schedules shows that the SB Coast Starlight currently leaves Seattle at 9:35 a.m., arriving in Portland at 1:50 p.m. The newly announced schedule shows the Starlight will leave at 9:50 a.m., with the same 1:50 p.m. arrival. There's a full 15 minutes saved for the Coast Starlight and its passengers and crew! That's got to be good. And it's good for an LD train that Neroden calculates to be already approaching a positive contribution.

The Starlight should benefit nicely from other spillovers of the enhanced Cascades trains. Everyone likes more frequencies. Everyone likes new stations, or classic ones refurbished, like Seattle's King Street Station. Everyone likes shiny and new equipment, and here they get two new(ish) Talgo trainsets. Everyone likes trips a little faster, even just 15 minutes. Everyone likes more reliable trains. On this segment the Cascades have a horrible showing, with currently 1 out of 3 trains running late. By the new contract, only 1 out of 8 will be late. And the brands of Amtrak, the Cascades, and even passenger rail in general will all be boosted.

Another fine example, as well, of the general rule that more and better Corridor trains help Amtrak's Long Distance service. And of course, the high frequency Cascades service was built upon the existing single round trip of the LD Coast Starlight. It's not either more Corridor trains/or more Long Distance, it's both.
 
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I assume those different train numbers south of PDX are merely due to the difference in days of the week, and that on days when both segments run passengers will get a one seat ride?
I don't know. There used to be cross-platform transfers at PDX for some connections, due to operational requirements.
I'm thinking the only thru train for a one-seat ride is highlighted in soft lavender-blue, color-keyed to the Oregon Department of Transportation. That's my interpretation; unsourced.
That is the Coast Starlight. So yes, but not related to ODOT.
Thanks for getting me back on the right track, Keelhauled.

So on the forthcoming schedule, only one Cascades train each way goes thru Seattle-Portland-Eugene #505, and only one Cascades frequency goes thru Eugene-Portland-Seattle #508. Plus the Coast Starlight runs thru. But still no thru train end to end Vancouver, B.C.-Seattle-Portland-Eugene or vice versa.

This route could use another $800 million more investment, to save another 10 or 20 minutes, improve on-time performance, and add more frequencies. But if this first phase is as successful as I expect, it should be easier to fund phase two than it was back in 2009.
 
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I assume those different train numbers south of PDX are merely due to the difference in days of the week, and that on days when both segments run passengers will get a one seat ride?
I don't know. There used to be cross-platform transfers at PDX for some connections, due to operational requirements.
It's called putting operational needs ahead of customer needs. Yes, a cross-platform transfer is "easy" but not if you are mobility-impaired, have several kids in tow, or just want to sleep. In those cases it's inconvenient, a hassle, and something that causes you to think twice about using the train next time. I truly hope the timetable is misleading in this respect.

At least in the old days of AGR, the cross-platform transfer in PDX netted you an extra 100-point segment minimum for the same amount of money as a through train. Now, even that little "goodie" is no more.

All that said, the PDX-SEA portion of the timetable is a remarkable improvement. Also good to see the early morning southbound departure out of PDX has been replaced with something at a more sensible hour. It's bizarre that ODOT ever thought that was a good idea in the first place. It will be interesting to see this timetable once the accompanying Thruway busses are included.

Any word on a start date? I have a Cascades trip booked in early September to make sure I take the train along the Puget Sound between OLY and TAC one more time before its routed inland. I assume I'm "safe" but would be good to know an ETA for the new routing.
 
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Any word on a start date? I have a Cascades trip booked in early September to make sure I take the train along the Puget Sound between OLY and TAC one more time before its routed inland. I assume I'm "safe" but would be good to know an ETA for the new routing.
We're hearing that the new schedule won't start until December, pending final work on the Tacoma trestle and station.
 
I see a neglect by our posters noting that there will be better connections to / from the Builder at both Vancouver, WA / PDX and Seattle.

Also isn't there still some single track between Tacoma and Vancouver, WA ? If so additional funds may allow another 10 minutes schedule reduction ?
 
I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but when do the Cascades start using the new bypass? Is that date set?
In the very first post at the top of the thread, the semi-official announcement includes this info:

"WSDOT and Amtrak are looking at early December to implement the new service with 3:20 run times."

They could start using the by-pass sooner, but, "the new Tacoma Dome Amtrak Station and the Tacoma trestle remain to be finished." So they might hold off.
 
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I see a neglect by our posters noting that there will be better connections to / from the Builder at both Vancouver, WA / PDX and Seattle.

Also isn't there still some single track between Tacoma and Vancouver, WA ? If so additional funds may allow another 10 minutes schedule reduction ?
There will be some stretches of single track on the new bypass from Tacoma to Nisqually, where the new route rejoins the mainline, but freight traffic on the bypass will be minimal, so overall planned reduction in travel time between SEA-PDX should not be affected. And on-time arrival percentages should increase. South of Nisqually to VAN is all double tracked. I think there is even a little (new) triple track in the Kelso/Longview area.
 
According to Wikipedia, the eventual travel time between SEA and PDX is 2:30 from the 3:20 in 2017. What else is left where they can shave off 50 minutes from?
There is currently about :45 padding in both directions. Much of that can be removed or reduced. According to WSDOT, 18 of the 20 ARRA-funded projects designed to improve speeds along the Cascades corridor have been completed. When all are finished, we can expect to see further time reductions (I would guess sometime in 2018). The fall schedule is somewhat conservative; I imagine that they're waiting to see how well things go this winter before making further changes.
 
I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but when do the Cascades start using the new bypass? Is that date set?
In the very first post at the top of the thread, the semi-official announcement includes this info:

"WSDOT and Amtrak are looking at early December to implement the new service with 3:20 run times."

They could start using the by-pass sooner, but, "the new Tacoma Dome Amtrak Station and the Tacoma trestle remain to be finished." So they might hold off.
Thanks for clearing that up. I had read that, but I wasn't sure if the new run time coincided with the bypass, or if with other track upgrades.
 
They could start using the by-pass sooner, but, "the new Tacoma Dome Amtrak Station and the Tacoma trestle remain to be finished." So they might hold off.
I am still confused on when the by-pass will open. If use of the bypass involves a change of stations, I would think that the timing of the changeover is not flexible but must be made public well in advance.
 
According to Wikipedia, the eventual travel time between SEA and PDX is 2:30 from the 3:20 in 2017. What else is left where they can shave off 50 minutes from?
There is currently about :45 padding in both directions. Much of that can be removed or reduced. According to WSDOT, 18 of the 20 ARRA-funded projects designed to improve speeds along the Cascades corridor have been completed. When all are finished, we can expect to see further time reductions (I would guess sometime in 2018). The fall schedule is somewhat conservative; I imagine that they're waiting to see how well things go this winter before making further changes.
Oh wow, didn't know they had 45 min up their sleeves. That would be huge if they got the time down to 2:30 min. Its almost like the travel time cuts when a new HSR line opens up in Europe.
 
They could start using the by-pass sooner, but, "the new Tacoma Dome Amtrak Station and the Tacoma trestle remain to be finished." So they might hold off.
I am still confused on when the by-pass will open. If use of the bypass involves a change of stations, I would think that the timing of the changeover is not flexible but must be made public well in advance.
No "if" involved. The current Tacoma station is not on the new route, which diverges at Reservation. The new Amtrak station is at Freighthouse Square on the old Milwaukee.
 
According to Wikipedia, the eventual travel time [goal] between SEA and PDX is 2:30 from the 3:20 in 2017. What else is left where they can shave off 50 minutes from?
There is currently about :45 padding in both directions.

... According to WSDOT, 18 of the 20 ARRA-funded projects designed to improve speeds along the Cascades corridor have been completed. ...
Oh wow, didn't know they had 45 min up their sleeves. That would be huge if they got the time down to 2:30 min. Its almost like the travel time cuts when a new HSR line opens up in Europe.
Nah, looks like our friend Charles Hamilton is mis-overestimating things here. ;)

If you want a list of projects to (further) improve this corridor, look here:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/83B17378-CDC8-4D57-AA60-4CD64BAF6D94/0/AmtrakCascadesMidRangePlan.pdf

Well, this list is from December 2008, before the Stimulus in 2009 promised to pay for more than $800 million of it. Many projects have been completed, and are included in that 20-count list that Charles refers to.

Still plenty of work on the WSDOT list. Speaking in large numbers, WSDOT could easily spend another $800 million before pausing again to catch their breath.

Same thing in Illinois and Michigan as in Washington State. They got almost more money than they could use in just 7 years. So the plan all along was for a Phase One, and followed by a Phase Two.

Unfortunately, Congress changed, and refused to fund any passenger rail projects.

Now, I guess those states are also waiting for an infrastructure plan from Congress. They'd better be prepared to wait.
 
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Looking at the Vancouver times in particular, it seems like the actual calling times (especially for the Portland through trains) are seeing relatively little improvement. It's still a very early morning from Vancouver (with it being impossible to get to the station a true hour before the train leaves via the SkyTrain) and the later arrival has actually moved back 10 minutes to be an even 11:00 PM instead of 10:50 PM - which, I worry, makes it look significantly worse ("11 PM" instead of "10:xx PM") than just the extra 10 minutes later it's arriving.

If my math is right, assuming we could narrow the time in Seattle to 20 minutes on the southbound 517 (done with today's 513,) we could advertise a 7:00 AM departure from Vancouver (a full half-hour later than today's 6:30 AM departure, and hops over a mental 6:xx am "very early morning" barrier to a somewhat more pleasant 7:00 am "early morning" departure.) This would also make it possible for someone to take the SkyTrain to the station and arrive a true hour in advance, likely with enough time to grab a quick breakfast before going through customs if they so chose. This would allow an 11:25 AM arrival into Seattle, with a 11:45 departure arriving at the same 3:05 PM time in Portland as it has today.

On the northbound, I'd push it back to the same 2:50 PM departure from Portland we have today. This would give a 6:10 PM arrival into Seattle and a 6:30 PM departure - likely still enough time in Seattle to get back from a business day and get on the train. This would arrive at 10:30 PM, still in the 10:xx "late night" frame but sounds better than 10:50 and a lot better than a "very late night" 11:00 PM arrival, especially since there's still border formalities to go through in Vancouver that's not noted in the schedule.
 
Looking at the Vancouver times in particular, it seems like the actual calling times (especially for the Portland through trains) are seeing relatively little improvement. It's still a very early morning from Vancouver (with it being impossible to get to the station a true hour before the train leaves via the SkyTrain) and the later arrival has actually moved back 10 minutes to be an even 11:00 PM instead of 10:50 PM - which, I worry, makes it look significantly worse ("11 PM" instead of "10:xx PM") than just the extra 10 minutes later it's arriving.

If my math is right, assuming we could narrow the time in Seattle to 20 minutes on the southbound 517 (done with today's 513,) we could advertise a 7:00 AM departure from Vancouver (a full half-hour later than today's 6:30 AM departure, and hops over a mental 6:xx am "very early morning" barrier to a somewhat more pleasant 7:00 am "early morning" departure.) This would also make it possible for someone to take the SkyTrain to the station and arrive a true hour in advance, likely with enough time to grab a quick breakfast before going through customs if they so chose. This would allow an 11:25 AM arrival into Seattle, with a 11:45 departure arriving at the same 3:05 PM time in Portland as it has today.

On the northbound, I'd push it back to the same 2:50 PM departure from Portland we have today. This would give a 6:10 PM arrival into Seattle and a 6:30 PM departure - likely still enough time in Seattle to get back from a business day and get on the train. This would arrive at 10:30 PM, still in the 10:xx "late night" frame but sounds better than 10:50 and a lot better than a "very late night" 11:00 PM arrival, especially since there's still border formalities to go through in Vancouver that's not noted in the schedule.
Changing the timing would interfere with the meet between the southbound and the northbound trains, both in the morning and the evening. There is only a single track north of Mount Vernon, so the meets occur just south of there.
 
Ergh...

I suppose we could move those trains as well (assuming there's no other operational requirements) to have that meet further south. Moving the 7:45 am northbound departure to 8:10 seems fine, though a 12:10 pm arrival into Vancouver does put it in an "afternoon" instead of "morning" timeframe, which may make a difference mentally for some passengers. Personally, I think it'd be better overall, but maybe the northbound traffic patterns indicate it wouldn't be.

Moving the 5:45pm southbound to 5:15pm seems to bump it a bit too early, especially if someone has an afternoon meeting downtown. A meeting ending around 4pm in downtown Vancouver can easily make a 5:45pm train with the recommended hour-ahead-of-time arrival suggestion, but a 5:15pm train makes that much more difficult (and if that meeting runs late it becomes extremely difficult.) It'd be nice if they could at least keep the current 10:50 PM northbound arrival into VAC, though; it at least feels a bit less of a late night mentally than a full-on 11 PM arrival.
 
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I have two stupid questions:

1. Why does it take so long to get from Vancouver WA to Portland? I thought they were in the same metro area, or is it due to bridges, etc (or just padding)?

2. Essentially the same question, why such long dwell times in Portland, padding?
 
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