Fare Systems - POP or not

[Deni]

Today is the big day. Here is a video from the local TV station about the opening and a new proof of payment fare policy at the new stations. I wonder if the T is experimenting with POP as used in many European tram systems.

WHDH Video

The article seems to say that it is only an interim process until their new fare system is in place. It's too bad America won't do POP fare systems. I think it is so much better than our fare barrier systems. People seem to think that there would be more fare evasion but there really isn't any evidence of that. As our systems work if someone jumps a turnstile and aren't caught they got away with it, but with POP systems they can be caught at any point while they are riding. And fare enforcers act as a kind of secondary security on the system. Using it on buses also speeds up boarding and cuts dwell times at stops.

L.A. Metro used to use POP system but the changed it. My understanding was that to get some federal security funds post-9/11 they were forced to switch to a barrier system, but I'm not sure if that's accurate.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

L.A. Metro used to use POP system but the changed it. My understanding was that to get some federal security funds post-9/11 they were forced to switch to a barrier system, but I'm not sure if that's accurate.

Doesn't San Diego use POP?

 

[jis]

Actually POP is the norm on many LRT systems as well as Commuter Rail systems in the US. Hard to put up enforceable barriers at stations in the sticks or in the middle of a street.

 

[Deni]

Actually POP is the norm on many LRT systems as well as Commuter Rail systems in the US. Hard to put up enforceable barriers at stations in the sticks or in the middle of a street.

Commuter systems have conductors taking tickets, and while that is barrier-free I don't think of it as the same way as POP systems as they run in Europe. It's not random check.

 

[joelkfla]

Commuter systems have conductors taking tickets, and while that is barrier-free I don't think of it as the same way as POP systems as they run in Europe. It's not random check.

Some do; others just have inspectors who occasionally check POP in a car. SunRail in Orlando is the latter.

 

[jis]

Commuter systems have conductors taking tickets, and while that is barrier-free I don't think of it as the same way as POP systems as they run in Europe. It's not random check.

I suppose you have not ridden every commuter system in the US. Have you?

Try SunRail for example. Tap on, tap off. Only sometimes your fare instrument is checked on board.

 

[Deni]

I suppose you have not ridden every commuter system in the US. Have you?

Try SunRail for example. Tap on, tap off. Only sometimes your fare instrument is checked on board.

Not every one, no, but a pretty big majority of them. I would not say that POP is the norm, the conductor model seems more common.

And certainly the ones with the most substantial ridership have conductors. Though I will say Metra conductors often work as a random check POP, sometimes they check your tickets sometimes they don't. But that's not by design.

 

[trainman74]

L.A. Metro used to use POP system but the changed it. My understanding was that to get some federal security funds post-9/11 they were forced to switch to a barrier system, but I'm not sure if that's accurate.

I never heard your explanation -- the only thing I ever heard is that they decided there was too much fare evasion on the heavy-rail lines. (And the system is still POP at most light rail and busway stations... at many of those stations, it would be unworkable to add turnstiles.)

 

[jis]

I never heard your explanation -- the only thing I ever heard is that they decided there was too much fare evasion on the heavy-rail lines. (And the system is still POP at most light rail and busway stations... at many of those stations, it would be unworkable to add turnstiles.)

That is my recollection and understanding too.

My understanding is that it is a POP system with turnstiles at some Metro stations. Turnstile or not, it is a tap and go system, with interesting confusion about whether to tap or not at transfer points and such.

Transport for London's Oyster covered facilities are like that too. The LRTs are tap and go no turnstile while the Tube has turntiles that use the same tap card, or your Apple Watch or such.

 

[MARC Rider]

Baltimore light rail has proof of payment system. The Baltimore Metro (all one line of it) has turnstiles.

 

[GiantsFan]

Muni, caltrain, VTA, and most transit agencies in the Bay Area are POP… only Bart is not

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I thought I'd read that the Vancouver SkyTrain instituted fare control because there was too much fare evasion.

Of course, Metra (about 20 years ago or so now, maybe more) got rid of the awful turnstiles on the Electric Line - and they had already been checking tickets manually onboard, so it was the right decision.

 

[Willbridge]

Vancouver, BC's Seabus was probably the first use of POP in North American transit. Because a lot off the riders were making bus connections with transfer rights the incentive for fare evasion was small. Edmonton opened LRT in April 1978 with a barrier system with ticket booths. In November 1980 we switched to POP. We learned to call the machines 'TVM's' rather than 'POP machines' when a lady sent us a letter warning that if we put POP machines in the stations the floors would get sticky.

As in Vancouver, the initial line had little problem with fare evasion because so many of the passengers had bus connections to make. Not, I should emphasize, that bus drivers check 100% of the passengers. It was just that the odds on being checked were high.

The Denver LRT line/s had the same experience. In both Edmonton and Denver I worked with Marketing to institute 10-ride ticket books to improve convenience for medium frequency riders or families or special events customers. As the rail systems grew, the incentive for fare evasion increased because more trips could be made all-rail. At the same time, this tempted budget trimming to add train hours to the system while holding the number of fare inspectors low. Consequently, evasion blossomed.

So, it takes a multi-faceted approach. Checks can keep fare evasion to 1% or 2% (a check of 1,001 fares on buses between downtown Edmonton and the U of A showed that was about the number of people who showed invalid passes on buses and got past the busy operator). Paid areas need to be defined. Fare media need to offer easy to use alternatives.

Edmonton poster used whimsy to sell Berlin-dimension tickets, the size of a souvenir that I had from Army days . Validators were built in the bus repair shop.

 

[Anderson]

Vancouver, BC's Seabus was probably the first use of POP in North American transit. Because a lot off the riders were making bus connections with transfer rights the incentive for fare evasion was small. Edmonton opened LRT in April 1978 with a barrier system with ticket booths. In November 1980 we switched to POP. We learned to call the machines 'TVM's' rather than 'POP machines' when a lady sent us a letter warning that if we put POP machines in the stations the floors would get sticky.

LOL!

 

[Fenway]

POP failed miserably on the Green Line in 2007 when the Charlie Card was first introduced - time will tell