Free SunRail rides coming soon!

[cirdan]

I am on the northbound now. It is not crowded. Unfortunately, I will not go all the way to debary since it will be a 2 hour wait for the southbound. I will detrain in Lake Mary.

wow, that really does look nice. I hope its a success.

 

[beautifulplanet]

More interesting press reports about SunRail. If these posts about different aspects of SunRail are in the wrong place here, or too numerous, please move or delete.

SunRail paper ticket one-way or round-trip fares 25 and 50 cents respectively more expensive compared to paying with SunCard

On Monday, rides will not be free anymore. Passengers will have to pay. There are two ways to pay.
1) Using a rechargable SunCard, or
2) buying a paper ticket for one-time use (single or round-trip only, no weekly or monthly passes on paper tickets).

The rechargable SunCard costs $5 to buy, to then pay fares with it.
This week the Florida Department of Transportation revealed when activating the vending machins at stations for paid service next week, that paper ticket fares would be 25 cents (one-way) or 50 cents (round-trip) more expensive than fares paid with SunCard.

F.e., the SunRail one-way fare within one county is $2, when paid with SunCard.

With a paper ticket, it would be $2.25.

That the ticket price for a cash fare is higher is in line with other rail systems around the world using modern rechargable fare media.

For example, the rechargable fare card in London, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is the Oyster card.

For the London Underground, the zone 1 Oyster fare is 2.20GBP, while the cash fare (paper ticket) is 4.70GBP.

And it is surely more effective when passengers use reloadable fare media than standing in long lines in front of vending machines to buy paper tickets, many people might think that this strategy seems to make sense. And that it is already used by successful rail systems, f.e. according to Transport for London's Annual Report for 2012, the London Underground even had a farebox recovery of 91% while having an annual ridership of 1.23 billion.

With the knowledge of things like that, many people might not be surprised that it would left to My Fox Orlando / WOFL to come up with something absurd like the higher fare for paper tickets being a ticket tax.

SunRail riders may be in for a shock once free service ends next week and pay service begins, in the form of a "ticket tax" [...]

To some, the desire of some news outlets to turn everything charged for something somehow publicly run or regulated into a "tax" is unsettling, especially since it seems like in other cities nobody yet called a higher ticket price for paper tickets a tax (not in Boston, where a CharlieTicket/cash fare is $2.50, but the CharlieCard fare $2.00; certainly not in London, and no case in any other city is known to me), and there's no reason why they would, when it's precisely just a higher fare for paper tickets, and not remotely any kind of tax approved by any kind of legislature...

Source:

Riders to see added SunRail fee
Posted: May 14, 2014 2:13 AM Updated: May 14, 2014 2:13 AM
By Mike Synan, Reporter
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/25508586/riders-to-see-added-sunrail-fee

 

[beautifulplanet]

Even in the final week before paid service, the DeBary parking lot is still filled up to the last spot

source:

SunRail: First, you must park
By Mark Lane
Published: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 at 4:22 p.m.
Last Modified: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 9:04 a.m.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20140513/COLUMNS/140519772?Title=SunRail-First-you-must-park&tc=ar

Some might wonder: Did the author of this article, Mr. Lane, not hear about Votran's free shuttles from nearby Gemini Springs Park parking lot and from Deltona Plaza?

 

[beautifulplanet]

SunRail "commuter rail" also brings customers to businesses around stations, f.e. Winter Park...

SunRail riders pack Winter Park restaurants, businesses
Posted: 9:10 p.m. Tuesday, May 13, 2014
WFTV
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/sunrail-riders-pack-winter-park-restaurants-busine/nfwTs/

 

[beautifulplanet]

Weekend service (or any additional service during mid-day, evenings etc.) would need extra funding

The state Department of Transportation has a 10-year, $195 million contract with Bombardier to operate SunRail. That contract is based on the current schedule. Add weekend service and you have to add more money to the contract to pay for conductors, fuel, cleaning and other costs of running a train system.

Which isn't cheap.

Reading this, it appears more unlikely that any additional runs at all will be added to the schedule in the next weeks or months, because the Department of Transportation (or theoretically the counties, which would have an even harder time allocating any resources) would have to provide extra funding.

Up to now, one might have thought that the operating contract with Bombardier possibly included more runs, but as the schedule was still "currently being tested and subject to change", as it reads on SunRail's official website, those additional runs in the contract just have not been implemented yet. But to the contrary, if all that is in the contract is those 17 southbound runs, 17 northbound runs, Monday to Fridays only, then it seems logical that the Department of Transportation already had to pay extra for the additional unscheduled mid-day "chase train" they started operating Monday of last week.

source:

SunRail riders asking 'Why no weekend service?'
by Mike Lafferty, Orlando Sentinel
3:55 p.m. EDT, May 7, 2014
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/sunrail/ride-with-me/os-sunrail-riders-want-weekend-service-20140507,0,3971737.post

 

[Scott Orlando]

By the numbers SunRail has been a great success. Toppping 10k riders per day for a startup is impressive. There have been overcrowding issues and delays, which would seem natural for intial running. On one trip I made, there was a small school field trip on an already very overcrowded train. They were shocked they had to stand. On another train was a large group of seniors just "looking for fun". We all know the high ridership is normal for intial service of a system and,of course, higher with free service. As many have stated here, we really need some time to evaluate the service. Once free rides end we will have a better grasp on the long term "yes-its-here-to-stay" situation. SunRail did finally start triple car service on the lone afternoon train and peak rush trains. I may have just missed it but I have not seen the DMU in the yard recently. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Overall, its great to see this reaction. My fear was empty trains and no one cared. Full trains and lots of talk is good. Full trains and lots of talk leads to more cars and more frequent trains. Full trains and lots of talk leads to "why doesnt it go here" and new routes. It takes time. Which makes me wonder about the local reporter who sold his car. Really? This isnt NYC or London. The line is good on weekdays and the buses are ok but One line does not a true system make! Baby steps...

Since this thread has run its course and soon SunRail will not be free, perhaps Penny can create a new thread "SunRail shines" or something....

 

[pennyk]

By the numbers SunRail has been a great success. Toppping 10k riders per day for a startup is impressive. There have been overcrowding issues and delays, which would seem natural for intial running. On one trip I made, there was a small school field trip on an already very overcrowded train. They were shocked they had to stand. On another train was a large group of seniors just "looking for fun". We all know the high ridership is normal for intial service of a system and,of course, higher with free service. As many have stated here, we really need some time to evaluate the service. Once free rides end we will have a better grasp on the long term "yes-its-here-to-stay" situation. SunRail did finally start triple car service on the lone afternoon train and peak rush trains. I may have just missed it but I have not seen the DMU in the yard recently. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Overall, its great to see this reaction. My fear was empty trains and no one cared. Full trains and lots of talk is good. Full trains and lots of talk leads to more cars and more frequent trains. Full trains and lots of talk leads to "why doesnt it go here" and new routes. It takes time. Which makes me wonder about the local reporter who sold his car. Really? This isnt NYC or London. The line is good on weekdays and the buses are ok but One line does not a true system make! Baby steps...

Since this thread has run its course and soon SunRail will not be free, perhaps Penny can create a new thread "SunRail shines" or something....

Hopefully, I will be able to create such a thread.

I rode SunRail 3 times and each time was crowded. It took me 3 days to "ace" the route. On my last trip, I was sitting with a commuter from Lake Mary to downtown. He was a civil engineer who was working on the I-4 construction project. I thought that was pretty funny - he absolutely knows how bad I-4 is and will get during construction.

I was on the northbound Silver Meteor last Friday, and while Shanghai and I were eating a late lunch, we noticed the extremely large crowds on the SunRail platforms. I think that was the day with the largest crowds.

Bottom line - I am also pleased with the reception SunRail has received. I was amazed at how many people were riding a train for the very first time.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I heard more locomotives and railcars are being ordered. Information came from someone, who asked one of the conductors.

 

[Anderson]

While I'd have to regard that as hearsay, it seems like plausible hearsay. I suspect they'll give it a few weeks before dropping a lot of money on equipment, if just to be able to do the order all at once, but I do suspect we're going to see a supplemental equipment order.

It also seems likely that at least a few more weekday runs will get added. Weekends may be a trickier proposition, but are probably going to happen eventually. Actually, the biggest medium-term issue may well be parking!

 

[cirdan]

And it is surely more effective when passengers use reloadable fare media than standing in long lines in front of vending machines to buy paper tickets, many people might think that this strategy seems to make sense. And that it is already used by successful rail systems, f.e. according to Transport for London's Annual Report for 2012, the London Underground even had a farebox recovery of 91% while having an annual ridership of 1.23 billion.

Sorry to be obtuse here, but I guess I haven't fully understood which is why I'm asking.

The Sunrail card is not really the same as Oyster is it? I mean, you still need to go to a machine to recharge it as opposed to being able to recharge it online. Or have I missed something? So in this respect there may still be a reason to queue in front of ticket machines, although admittedly not before every trip.

London Transport is currently closing down all but a handful of its ticket offices as Oyster has been such a success that people are no no longer buying tickets from staffed windows. Many people are worried that this will mean more de-staffing of stations and nobody to ask if you're confused.

 

[beautifulplanet]

Sorry to be obtuse here, but I guess I haven't fully understood which is why I'm asking.

The Sunrail card is not really the same as Oyster is it? I mean, you still need to go to a machine to recharge it as opposed to being able to recharge it online. Or have I missed something? So in this respect there may still be a reason to queue in front of ticket machines, although admittedly not before every trip.

Yes, of course the SunRail Card is not 100% the same as Oyster Card offered by Transport for London. The basic strategy to use reloadable fare media though might seem similar to many.

It seems like there would be higher efficiencies especially with occasional riders. For example, there would be someone who rides SunRail just once a week, within one county, one-way. With the reloadable SunCard, the person f.e. could put $20 on their SunCard, so there is just one transaction necessary, while if they bought paper-tickets each time, there would be 10 transactions necessary. Cash transactions always include a significant additional transaction cost - it seems like there might be a reason that SunRail stations include 4 vending machines, but 3 of them only accept card payments, and only 1 of them cash and card payments. Card payments also include a transaction cost, but if a 2-dollar-something ticket was bought 10 times, the total transaction costs are much higher compared to one $20 card payment. In addition, there is added convenience for the customer by not having to go to the vending machine 10 times, instead just having to top up his SunCard one time. The vending machines then also are used less often for the same or even an increased number of passenger rides, hence more efficiently. Then there is the aspect of customer loyalty: If one already possesses a card for some kind of store or service, one might be more likely to frequent that store or service. This might also be the reason why so many company offer customer cards, and this could be true to SunRail as well. Especially with occasional riders for SunRail, it seems they might be more likely in a scenario "I already got the SunCard, I already put money onto it, so now I'm just gonna ride, and tap on, and tap off" vs. "I possibly could ride now, but I don't even know if I have cash on me, or if my cards are accepted, and first I have to find out how to work with that vending machine to purchase my ticket anyway, and then I also have to allow extra time before departure to arrive early in order to have enough time to buy my ticket first..."

So there might be a good reason for SunRail or other rail operators to use reloadable fare media (or fare discount cards or frequent traveller programs etc.), and also put incentives in place, to encourage to use of them.

And possibly some of the press reports are wrong (that does indeed happen sometimes), but there were statements made in them that one should indeed be able to load or reload the SunCard online.

For example, here:

Those who already have a SunCard can go to the website to register their cards to guard against fraud, theft or loss, and to load or reload SunCards. (Emphasis added.)

Source:

SunRail tickets now being sold

Published On: May 11 2014 05:43:53 PM EDT Updated On: May 12 2014 05:37:58 PM EDT

by Dawn Brooks, Online Editor, Producer, WKMG Local 6

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/sunrail-tickets-available-monday/25924078

 

[beautifulplanet]

The Sunrail card is not really the same as Oyster is it? I mean, you still need to go to a machine to recharge it as opposed to being able to recharge it online. Or have I missed something? So in this respect there may still be a reason to queue in front of ticket machines, although admittedly not before every trip.

Meanwhile, I looked it up on the SunRail's own website, and unless SunRail provides incorrect information themselves, then it seems like indeed it should be possible to reload SunCards online. Not being able to provide a deeplink into SunRail.com, still this is what can be found on the "Fares & Passes" -> "Reloadable SunCards" page, in the very bottom of the page in the "Managing Your Account" section:

SunCard holders will be able to check their balance and reload their card with a new plan or prepaid value through any of the ticket vending machines located at the SunRail stations, or online 24/7 at www.SunRail.com. (Emphasis added.)

 

[cirdan]

Is the Sunrail card like Oyster in as far as that you can go anywhere with it and the fare is correctly calculated?

The disadvantage of this is that you need to tap in AND tap out so the card knows what to charge you.

The alternative is that you tell the card what trip you are making when you buy the card. For a passenger making several different trips regularly, this would require holdings several cards with a risk of confusion.

 

[beautifulplanet]

Is the Sunrail card like Oyster in as far as that you can go anywhere with it and the fare is correctly calculated?

Yes, the SunCard is similar to the Oyster card in regards to that when used as a "prepaid value", you need to tap on, and tap off, and the correct fare is being calculated.

For example if you tap on in Altamonte Springs, and tap off at Sand Lake Road, the SunCard will deduct $3 as one county line was crossed, so $1 is being added to the $2 base-fare.

The SunCard is still different compared to Oyster in several ways, some of them are:

1) Oyster offers a daily cap, still so far I did not see any information about a maximum daily price charged on "prepaid value" SunCards.

2) Oyster is offered through several different modes of public transportation - besides being valid in the London Underground, it's also valid in London Buses, London Overground, DLR (Docklands Light Railway), Tramlink, Emirates Air Line (cable car) and National Rail (within Greater London only). Many might think this difference cannot be seen as a shortcoming of the SunCard though, as Central Florida does not offer so many different modes of public transportation in the first place (yet ).

3) Oyster charges a 5 GBP deposit, while SunCard is bought for $5. So an Oyster card can be returned, and the rider will receive the 5 GBP back. Any information about returning a SunCard once it is bought is not known to me yet.

4) Oyster offers an "auto top-up" function, when 20 or 40GBP are automatically loaded onto the card, once it has less than 10GBP on it. This offers even more convenience for occasional riders. So far, no information is known for me, that "prepaid value" SunCard is offered with an automatic re-load function.

The disadvantage of this is that you need to tap in AND tap out so the card knows what to charge you.

Yes, also with SunCard on SunRail, one needs to tap in and also tap out. With the Oyster card, there is a penalty for not tapping out. How the exact process is with SunRail if riders "forget" to tap out, is not known to me yet. If reloadable fare media and the mandatory tap out really is a disadvantage, could be the subject of debate. Sure riders have to get used to it, but many might think it could also be a very effective and convenient way to travel.

The alternative is that you tell the card what trip you are making when you buy the card. For a passenger making several different trips regularly, this would require holdings several cards with a risk of confusion.

At least some might think that this alternative would be not as good, compared to the current tap on, tap off process...

 

[battalion51]

While I'd have to regard that as hearsay, it seems like plausible hearsay. I suspect they'll give it a few weeks before dropping a lot of money on equipment, if just to be able to do the order all at once, but I do suspect we're going to see a supplemental equipment order.

It also seems likely that at least a few more weekday runs will get added. Weekends may be a trickier proposition, but are probably going to happen eventually. Actually, the biggest medium-term issue may well be parking!

I'd think in the short term it's far more plausible that you'd see Tri-Rail equipment re-deployed to Central Florida. With the Rotem's fully online now there's got to be a surplus of coaches and cab cars down there. Also I've seen some videos out there with the new BL36PHs running in revenue service, so that could mean that there will be F-40s/GP49s that are available. It doesn't seem like road power is the problem based on what I'm reading though, coach space seems to be the main problem.

 

[beautifulplanet]

Even in the final week before paid service, the DeBary parking lot is still filled up to the last spot

source:

SunRail: First, you must park

By Mark Lane

Published: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 at 4:22 p.m.

Last Modified: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 9:04 a.m.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20140513/COLUMNS/140519772?Title=SunRail-First-you-must-park&tc=ar

Some might wonder: Did the author of this article, Mr. Lane, not hear about Votran's free shuttles from nearby Gemini Springs Park parking lot and from Deltona Plaza?

Now already starting to reply to my own posts - Mr. Land obviously ended up hearing about Gemini Springs Park after all, as meanwhile he parked there, used the free shuttle bus, and actually rode SunRail, and again wrote about it in today's column in the Daytona Beach News-Journal.

Some other press reports say that SunRail now added a third car to three of its five trains, but stopped running the chase train. Some might think it's still kind of unfortunate FDOT was not able yet to fix the issues of overcrowding (turning potential passengers away, hopefully not for good) and delays. As the article says:

Once the train stopped at Sanford, the train’s first floor was standing room only. After the Lake Mary station, people were standing chest to chest on the lower two levels. By the time we reached Altamonte Springs, some of those on the platform looked at the doorway, looked at the people standing there, and decided they had other things to do.

And:

It turned out, I had more [time] than that because northbound trains were running 35 minutes late. The voice on the loudspeaker said with feeling that SunRail was very sorry for this.

When the train arrived [at the Winter Park station], its doors opened to reveal a solid wall of people. I wedged into the last few inches left and the train pulled put out, leaving a handful of unhappy travelers behind.

Reading this, some might wish there would have been a way, even just temporarily for the free rider period, for FDOT to have been able to add more cars to more trains, or do something else, in order to not have this kind of overcrowding and in order to not leave unhappy potential riders behind.

Source:

SunRail and the lure of a $11.75 cup of coffee

By Mark Lane

Published: Thursday, May 15, 2014 at 2:27 p.m.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20140515/COLUMNS/140519663?Title=SunRail-and-the-lure-of-a-11-75-cup-of-coffee

 

[cirdan]

Is the Sunrail card like Oyster in as far as that you can go anywhere with it and the fare is correctly calculated?

Yes, the SunCard is similar to the Oyster card in regards to that when used as a "prepaid value", you need to tap on, and tap off, and the correct fare is being calculated.

For example if you tap on in Altamonte Springs, and tap off at Sand Lake Road, the SunCard will deduct $3 as one county line was crossed, so $1 is being added to the $2 base-fare.

The SunCard is still different compared to Oyster in several ways, some of them are:

1) Oyster offers a daily cap, still so far I did not see any information about a maximum daily price charged on "prepaid value" SunCards.

2) Oyster is offered through several different modes of public transportation - besides being valid in the London Underground, it's also valid in London Buses, London Overground, DLR (Docklands Light Railway), Tramlink, Emirates Air Line (cable car) and National Rail (within Greater London only). Many might think this difference cannot be seen as a shortcoming of the SunCard though, as Central Florida does not offer so many different modes of public transportation in the first place (yet ).

3) Oyster charges a 5 GBP deposit, while SunCard is bought for $5. So an Oyster card can be returned, and the rider will receive the 5 GBP back. Any information about returning a SunCard once it is bought is not known to me yet.

4) Oyster offers an "auto top-up" function, when 20 or 40GBP are automatically loaded onto the card, once it has less than 10GBP on it. This offers even more convenience for occasional riders. So far, no information is known for me, that "prepaid value" SunCard is offered with an automatic re-load function.

The disadvantage of this is that you need to tap in AND tap out so the card knows what to charge you.

Yes, also with SunCard on SunRail, one needs to tap in and also tap out. With the Oyster card, there is a penalty for not tapping out. How the exact process is with SunRail if riders "forget" to tap out, is not known to me yet. If reloadable fare media and the mandatory tap out really is a disadvantage, could be the subject of debate. Sure riders have to get used to it, but many might think it could also be a very effective and convenient way to travel.

The alternative is that you tell the card what trip you are making when you buy the card. For a passenger making several different trips regularly, this would require holdings several cards with a risk of confusion.

At least some might think that this alternative would be not as good, compared to the current tap on, tap off process...

Thanks for that info. It sounds well thought out.

Are the stations open access, or are there barriers? With barriers its more difficult to forget to tap out, but that would require a lot of extra fences plus also potential issues on the stations that are shared with Amtrak.

 

[beautifulplanet]

Thanks for that info. It sounds well thought out.

Are the stations open access, or are there barriers? With barriers its more difficult to forget to tap out, but that would require a lot of extra fences plus also potential issues on the stations that are shared with Amtrak.

The SunRail stations are open access. There are no barriers. Construction of barriers would probably indeed have been difficult, and many might think it was probably the right choice for FDOT not to build any. Also on London Overground, there were no barriers at all, even with Oyster in use; only recently some select London Overground stations received barriers, and it's still not planned for most of them...

There were press reports in the meantime, and if I understood it correctly, then in case riders forget to tap off, all that will happen is that the maximum fare of $4 is going to be deducted from their "prepaid value" SunCard, even if they just traveled within one or two counties, so the fare actually would have been only $2 or $3.

Today, first day of paid SunRail service. Will be interesting to see how everything goes..

 

[jebr]

Thanks for that info. It sounds well thought out.

Are the stations open access, or are there barriers? With barriers its more difficult to forget to tap out, but that would require a lot of extra fences plus also potential issues on the stations that are shared with Amtrak.

The SunRail stations are open access. There are no barriers. Construction of barriers would probably indeed have been difficult, and many might think it was probably the right choice for FDOT not to build any. Also on London Overground, there were no barriers at all, even with Oyster in use; only recently some select London Overground stations received barriers, and it's still not planned for most of them...

Instead of "tapping out", I wonder if they could just set up two to three "tap" locations at each station, one for each county. That way you just tap your reader on the correct county and it deducts the correct amount. They do something similar on the Northstar here at Target Field Station (they don't do it at the outlying stations because on the way "out" from downtown there's only one fare rate for intermediate station travel, and most people on the way "in" travel to downtown.) You can change the reader to the correct station as well if you're only going to one of the intermediate stations on the way in to downtown.

 

[MattW]

What happens if someone has the fare for one zone, but travels two? Does it deduct the card into a negative balance?

 

[chrsjrcj]

The SunCard system is similar to what Tri-Rail uses, except you can use Tri-Rail's card on Miami Dade Transit (and eventually Broward Transit and Palm Tran). Since I'm not a frequent Tri-Rail rider, I always opt for a paper ticket, which fortunately does not come with an added fee.

 

[neroden]

3) Oyster charges a 5 GBP deposit, while SunCard is bought for $5. So an Oyster card can be returned, and the rider will receive the 5 GBP back. Any information about returning a SunCard once it is bought is not known to me yet.

This in particularly is an extremely dumb move. It will keep people buying paper tickets. Forever. (Like chrsjrcj does on Tri-Rail.)

London's "refundable deposit" system means *everyone* is switching to Oyster.