Future of the Pacific Parlour Cars?

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domefoamer

Train Attendant
Joined
May 27, 2005
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92
This topic has already been discussed some already over on another thread, but it's been drowned out by larger topics like the future of all LD trains, etc. I feel like it's much more than a "tidbit," though. They may be only five cars, but they're Amtrak's only unique, vintage passenger equipment, besides the Heritage diners that will be replaced soon, and have been remodeled so many times that they've lost much vintage appeal, as I understand it.

I'm so happy that I had a chance to ride a PPC on the northbound Starlight last spring. As my name suggests, I'm drawn to the look and feel of midcentury streamliner equipment. So I found the PPC especially rewarding. Though the same basic outline of a Superliner, they showed what a little attention to decor and detail can do to transform an interior. In a Sightseeer Lounge, I concentrate on the view outside and try to overlook the plastic extrusions and tacky upholstery, which remind me of a humble light rail car. I'm glad we have them, of course, but they look like they were intended to be hosed down after service.

In contrast, the PPC displays nice wood paneling (veneer) on most surfaces, and indirect lighting from sconces between the wide windows. Enough folks have praised the comfort of the swivel chairs; what can I add? It's a calming place inside, and with the smaller passenger load of the sleepers, you get to know people quickly.

There was something slightly haunted and absent, though. Maybe it was the large steel steam table between the dining and lounge areas, which reminded you of times when it served more than the box of fruit sitting there nowadays. The downstairs theater wasn't operating on my run, interrupted by a midday bustitution for track work. It may be an anachronism today, when few travel without several movies loaded onto their "device," though.

Enough ruminations. If you've ridden these fine old cars, you probably have even wiser things to say. So let me just ask:

-- what "renovations" would you like to see happen, and what would you really like to save?

-- what's your estimate of the chances that the PPCs will go into renovation, never to be seen on Amtrak again?

I fear that Amtrak might be embarrassed by the etched glass partition that doesn't fit with this new trend towards standardized, bare-bones transportation. You know, the one that says, "Coast Starlight / Superior Service."
 
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While nice, the PPC interiors are getting long in the tooth and could stand a redo. Take out the steam table since meals are now plated in the Diner and perhaps put another swivel chair in its place. Take out the lower level theater, reopen the windows and put another lounging area in there. Maybe a couple cozy booths and tables where you can hide out and get some work done if you need to. Spend a few more bucks on heavier curtain rods as the 3 PPCs I have been on had several bent ones.

During the El Capitan days, the Lounges had a restroom near the Diner end vestibule according to some car plan books I have; if the plumbing in would not involve a nightmare, put one back in to save a potential long walk back to the Sleeper.
 
I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.
 
I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.
And yet, just yesterday me and a co-worker started talking about train travel. Seems they'd taken the Starlight from Chico to Los Angeles and back four or so years ago, making the wise decision to travel with their family in Sleeper. It was their first trip on Amtrak, or on a train for that matter. They've taken several more trips since then, including the Capitol Corridor to get to Raiders games in Oakland.

Their most pointed memory? The PPC. They said that there was interest in visiting some family of theirs in Denver this next year, and looking to take Amtrak to get there. When I said that the PPC was only found on the Starlight, and not on any other Amtrak LD train, they quickly started to reconsider.

So, no. I would disagree with you. Yes, the current cars may be a drain, but there needs to be a First Class Parlor-type car on all LD trains with Sleeper services. Just my very staunch $0.02.
 
I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.
And yet, just yesterday me and a co-worker started talking about train travel. Seems they'd taken the Starlight from Chico to Los Angeles and back four or so years ago, making the wise decision to travel with their family in Sleeper. It was their first trip on Amtrak, or on a train for that matter. They've taken several more trips since then, including the Capitol Corridor to get to Raiders games in Oakland.
Their most pointed memory? The PPC. They said that there was interest in visiting some family of theirs in Denver this next year, and looking to take Amtrak to get there. When I said that the PPC was only found on the Starlight, and not on any other Amtrak LD train, they quickly started to reconsider.

So, no. I would disagree with you. Yes, the current cars may be a drain, but there needs to be a First Class Parlor-type car on all LD trains with Sleeper services. Just my very staunch $0.02.
The implication from Amtrak's data is that the PPCs raise direct costs by about 50% over and above what a sleeper train normally costs.
 
Do I hear you say it costs half as much to pull, staff and maintain one PPC as the rest of a full train of, say eight cars? Present your evidence, and define "direct cost." They're no heavier than another car, and they require one staffer. Is their maintenance cost equal to three or four Superliners?

We can all agree that anything without ticketed seats is a "non-revenue car," but...
 
Do I hear you say it costs half as much to pull, staff and maintain one PPC as the rest of a full train of, say eight cars? Present your evidence, and define "direct cost." They're no heavier than another car, and they require one staffer. Is their maintenance cost equal to three or four Superliners?

We can all agree that anything without ticketed seats is a "non-revenue car," but...
Here
 
Plenty of others here can say this with more authority, but isn't the Starlight a a longer consist than many others on the list? More cars means more expense, whatever the age of the cars.
 
Two ideas/questions:

Does the PPC employee pay for himself/herself? In other words, is the revenue from the drinks higher than what that employee costs? If so, couldn't Amtrak just leave the car unstaffed? Passengers could still get drinks from the cafe car.

Radical idea: eliminate the PPCs, and make the Sightseer Lounges eligible to sleeper passengers only.
 
Does the PPC employee pay for himself/herself? In other words, is the revenue from the drinks higher than what that employee costs? If so, couldn't Amtrak just leave the car unstaffed? Passengers could still get drinks from the cafe car.
Just personal experience here... the SCAs in the PPC are very good at selling drinks and souvenirs, but seem to be constrained by a lack of product to sell.
Radical idea: eliminate the PPCs, and make the Sightseer Lounges eligible to sleeper passengers only.
That would be tough since the Sightseer Lounge also serves as the cafe car for coach passengers.
 
It's been reported on another thread that the Pacific Parlour cars are about to go in for a major refurbishment. This is a great time for Amtrak to reconsider how these cars are being used:

The steam tables can be removed. They made since when the meals used to be plated in the PPC, but now all meals are played in the kitchen of the adjacent dining car. That could allow a little more seating to be added.

The movie theater was a nice idea but it seems very lightly used by passengers. That's a large area that could be repurposed. Anybody have some ideas for what should go there?
 
There is a distinction to be made between

(a) continuing to run the PPCs themselves (60-year-old Heritage cars with obsolete and specialized parts)

(b) having some sort of first-class lounge or "alternate lounge" car.

I think there's a case for (b) when a new order of Superliners is made, and Amtrak's fleet strategy agrees with me. They seem to be a useful marketing tool, and they can address the issue of lounge overcrowding on the longest of the trains.

However, at this point, I seriously doubt it's wise to actually keep doing (a). Museums have the volunteer effort necessary to keep 60-year-old pieces of rolling stock running... but it's not very cost effective for Amtrak.

----

But in the meantime, the movie theater should be converted into an electronics lounge. How about providing a direct HDMI hookup from the screen and letting passengers plug their own devices into the "big screen", first-come first-serve (or taking reservations)? This requires minimal adaptation and would probably be attractive.
 
But in the meantime, the movie theater should be converted into an electronics lounge. How about providing a direct HDMI hookup from the screen and letting passengers plug their own devices into the "big screen", first-come first-serve (or taking reservations)? This requires minimal adaptation and would probably be attractive.
So, one person would grab exclusive control of the "big screen" and display on it what ever they wanted, and everyone else, including children, would be at their mercy?

Movies? Porn? Single player games? Stock reports? Anything!
 
But in the meantime, the movie theater should be converted into an electronics lounge. How about providing a direct HDMI hookup from the screen and letting passengers plug their own devices into the "big screen", first-come first-serve (or taking reservations)? This requires minimal adaptation and would probably be attractive.
So, one person would grab exclusive control of the "big screen" and display on it what ever they wanted, and everyone else, including children, would be at their mercy?

Movies? Porn? Single player games? Stock reports? Anything!
Only if they choose to go downstairs. It's not that big of a room.
 
I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.
And they are thee SOLE REASON I have taken several "day trips" from LA to the Bay Area.

Amtrak already lost my family on the AT, with the amenity cuts. (not too shabby in revenue if you figure over 20+ OW trips)

Lose the PPC? Number one, I'm going less. Number two, I'm not buying sleeper class.
 
It's been reported on another thread that the Pacific Parlour cars are about to go in for a major refurbishment. This is a great time for Amtrak to reconsider how these cars are being used:

The steam tables can be removed. They made since when the meals used to be plated in the PPC, but now all meals are played in the kitchen of the adjacent dining car. That could allow a little more seating to be added.

The movie theater was a nice idea but it seems very lightly used by passengers. That's a large area that could be repurposed. Anybody have some ideas for what should go there?
So simple it's stoopid. Link the big screen to a rear mounted camera. Then everyone gets a "railfan window". Of course the BEST idea would be a locomotive mounted camera, but then they'd have to provide diapers for everyone watching that view........
 
Since there has been a plan in place for several years to have Business Class on the Starlight, why not have it be downstairs where the lightly used theater is located! ( And the wasted space in the so called Video Game room in the Coaches could also be used as a cafe or bar car to raise revenue)

The idea to get rid of the steam table and add more swivel seating is an excellent one as is having more souviners for the attendant to sell! ( when I rode in Oct. there were Zero items for sale)
 
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For me the value of the PPC seems to have hugely to do with the attendant. I have really enjoyed it exactly one time - that was the first time which was in 2005, I think, and Nanette was the attendant. The place was packed, she was a riot, and everyone had a great time - and this was not the c&w tasting which came later in the day. On other trips, even with the meals offered, it has been a dull experience, sometimes with NO one in there. Given the fabled expense to maintain them, my vote would be to let them go. Nice idea at one time, but not happening now for whatever reason. I never did get a cappuccino from the machines that were reported to cost $4K apiece IIRC.
 
If you assume that the PPC cars are worn out and expensive to maintain and additional revenue they attract warrants a replacement, what is the best option? Since we know new Superliners are a far off wish, the only cars left that would work and are available are the much maligned CCC cars. While they don't have the big windows, they could be made much more attractive with suggestions made by the OP. If the lower level galley is not needed because food is supplied from the adjoining diner, replace with business class seats. Minimal cost but maximize revenue. If it works, could be a model for a 1st class lounge/dining/BC on perhaps the CZ and EB.
 
Have ridden the Coast Starlight three times in past year. On one trip the PPC was replaced by a SSL. I noticed that when there was a PPC, a smail group of passengers ended up "hogging" the swivel seats to the extent of leaving personal items in the seats(to save them) when they had to leave the seat for some reason. Since there are three sleepers usually on the CS, I preferred the SSL used instead of the PPC since seats provide better viewing angle to see scenery than the six or eight swivel seats. In fact I stayed in my roomette for sightseeing(both sides) since it provided the best views and better comfort for me than the swivel seats. Unless some sort of Sleeper Car sightseeing lounge can be provided for all the Western LD trains, I have no problem discontinuing the only five PPC's remaining.
 
I agree with the Tennessee Traveler. After several trips on the CS, I like the idea of a sleeper-class lounge car, but I'm fine with getting rid of the PPC. The best seats are clearly the swivel seats, and on ALL my trips they were hogged by groups almost the whole time.

Some combination of the SSL's large windows with the PPC's swivel seats would be ideal.

Here's my other idea: replace the PPCs with a remodeled SSL. Some combination of the SSL's large windows with the PPC's swivel seats would be ideal. Use the downstairs area as a kitchen, & cook and serve "REAL FOOD" from there for the sleeper pax. Then, add this car to all LD trains for sleeper pax only. Then, redo the dining cars as a more casual, cheaper, take out" - style alternative, mainly for coach pax.
 
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Does the PPC employee pay for himself/herself? In other words, is the revenue from the drinks higher than what that employee costs? If so, couldn't Amtrak just leave the car unstaffed? Passengers could still get drinks from the cafe car.
Just personal experience here... the SCAs in the PPC are very good at selling drinks and souvenirs, but seem to be constrained by a lack of product to sell.
On my trips the PPC attendant has rarely if ever walked through the car offering cocktails or snacks. If they did they could probably double or triple the current sales. Unfortunately the PPC isn’t stocked at anything approaching a reasonable amount. At the start of my last CS trip I ordered a double Jack & Coke on the way out of LA. According to the attendant that single cocktail had consumed ALL of the Jack Daniels that was stocked for the entire run. Amtrak appears to be setting itself up to fail by a staff that is less than enthusiastic about selling and doesn’t have anywhere near enough product to sell anyhow.

But in the meantime, the movie theater should be converted into an electronics lounge. How about providing a direct HDMI hookup from the screen and letting passengers plug their own devices into the "big screen", first-come first-serve (or taking reservations)? This requires minimal adaptation and would probably be attractive.
So, one person would grab exclusive control of the "big screen" and display on it what ever they wanted, and everyone else, including children, would be at their mercy?

Movies? Porn? Single player games? Stock reports? Anything!
Right now we’re already at the mercy of children’s movies that apparently chew up the same bandwidth the WiFi service uses. Many folks have complained about the lack of swivel chairs due to arrogant riders who refuse to give them up. Many folks have complained about extremely poor WiFi speeds. That’s exactly what I’ve seen on my own trips as well. I’ve never heard anyone complain about lack of tables or access to children’s movies. Maybe Amtrak should replace the downstairs theater and upstairs tables with more swivel chairs?

I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.
Of course you do.
Apparently Paulus still doesn’t realize that we already know what he’s going to say before he can blurt it out.
 
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Once, on the TE, I could not find a seat in the SSL that was not at a table. The setee seats were all taken up. Should that mean that the SSL should be removed from the consist?

That is the reasoning being postulated here by some, they couldn't get a swivel in the PPC, so it should be removed......

Sounds to me like a bit of whining..............
 
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