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Gateway Project/NYP Capacity Improvement

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railiner

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I like that idea, but isn't digging under Manhattan a pain in the you-know-where with all the utility pipes and cables?
I've been told that the Lexington Avenue subway line was in the way, so they didn't do that.

jb
Digging from 31st or 33rd Streets up to 42nd Street wouldn't be nearly as far as the new LIRR ESA tunnel...(from 63rd down to around 38th Streets), although making the junction to all 4 East River lines would take a lot of work.

The Lexington Avenue subway line runs under Park Avenue until around 41st Street where it transitions Northeast over to Lexington. So if the new line from Penn would travel under Madison, it should not impact the Lexington subway line. It could also transition diagonally parallel to the subway to reach the lower level GCT tracks..

As far as the engineering difficulty that @jis mentioned...I had not taken that into account on my proposal. If you would compare the total effort either way, I am not sure that my proposal would have cost more or not, but it certainly would have afforded a lot more traffic flow options. Even more, if additional tubes were constructed. And like the 63rd Street tubes, provision could have been made for a new subway crossing piggybacked with it, to provide another crossing to Queens...

Anyway, it's all moot now...
 
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jis

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@railiner, Your proposal (actually a vrsion pretty close to it) was considered in the early days when the ARC MIS document was being developed (this was in the '70s, it's been a while). It was rejected for reasons I described. It did not make it to the list of plausible Alternatives that were presented in the ARC MIS document.
 

west point

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The Daily news ignored an item about Penn south. The very long range plans are to extend the stub tracks to become thru tracks then thru east river tunnel bores 5 and 6. The new bores are possible because they will duplicate the same elevations as the present East river tunnel bores. Then Penn south can become the main Amtrak platforms with its wider platforms.

However bores 5 and 6 cannot be started as they come very close to either Water main 1 or 2 in elevation. Water main #3 has to be completed and connected south of Penn before the proposed bores 5 and 6 can be started. Then Penn south will become the main platforms for most of the Amtrak thru trains and will connect to Sunnyside yard SSY as well..

One thought 5 and 6 could be started from the Queens side stopping short of the water main until water main 3 is connoted speeding up the final connection to Penn south. Any chance that would happen? Not likely ?

Do not worry most of us will be long gone before it is completed but still we can hope.
 

jis

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The Daily news ignored an item about Penn south. The very long range plans are to extend the stub tracks to become thru tracks then thru east river tunnel bores 5 and 6. The new bores are possible because they will duplicate the same elevations as the present East river tunnel bores. Then Penn south can become the main Amtrak platforms with its wider platforms.

However bores 5 and 6 cannot be started as they come very close to either Water main 1 or 2 in elevation. Water main #3 has to be completed and connected south of Penn before the proposed bores 5 and 6 can be started. Then Penn south will become the main platforms for most of the Amtrak thru trains and will connect to Sunnyside yard SSY as well..

One thought 5 and 6 could be started from the Queens side stopping short of the water main until water main 3 is connoted speeding up the final connection to Penn south. Any chance that would happen? Not likely ?

Do not worry most of us will be long gone before it is completed but still we can hope.
Can you provide a citation or a reference to a document that presents this or otherwise point to a source? Thanks.

There is a reason I ask this question.

Water Tunnel 1 is nowhere near the path of the projected tunnels 5 and 6. You are probably confusing yourself with the recollection that eastward construction from the earlier ARC deep station under 34th St was blocked by Water Tunnel 1. But that is history, long gone and hopefully forgotten.

The main problem for breaking out to the east from NYPSS is the 7th Ave subway and the 6th Ave subway and PATH tunnels, both of which slope downwards to the south and are a little deeper at 31st or 30th Sts, than at 32nd and 33rd St.

This was discovered in early planning and according to folks at Amtrak NEC Capital Projects (Drew Galloway - now at PB), they changed plans to make the NYPSS tracks (and hence platforms) at a slightly greater depth (~10-15') than the rest of Penn Station so as to be able to needle those tunnels through the maze to the east that it has to pass through while staying within the ruling gradient limits, if and when they get built. Right now there is neither any plan or funding nor any EIS to do so.

Incidentally it was also Drew Galloway who spearheaded the entire effort to build the approach tunnel under the West Side development to preserve an entry into Penn Station from the projected new Hudson Tunnels.

As for Penn South becoming the main Amtrak station, that is pure speculation based on not much.

Incidentally the grand visionary plan for Penn South also has a four track very deep station under the same Block 780 in a bored tunnel, for use by High Speed service. This is deep enough to not interfere with Tunnel 1, and involves all sorts of additional under river tunnels, and hence unlikely to see the proverbial light of the day. :) Maybe you are confusing that part of the draft document with the 8 track Penn South that Cuomo is talking about?
 
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jis

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John Bobinyec

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Looks like some major stuff might come to pass around Penn Station. Moynihan is just the beginning.....


Still notable is no new Penn Station, which remains "stuffed under Madison Square Garden."

jb
 

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Andrew

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That would be a long way along 14th Street from the Hudson. The 'L' subway line already runs along it, as far as the 8th Avenue Station, where it meets the A, C, and E lines. There isn't very much around 14th and 8th as a 'destination'.....
New hudson tunnels can be built to 14th street and 8th Avenue which can act as a convenient transfer station to the subway--which would also help offload Penn Station.
 
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