Gateway Project/NYP Capacity Improvement

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

Gemuser

Service Attendant
Joined
Jul 14, 2012
Messages
137
Location
Sydney, Australia
If you own a parcel of land, you own it all the way down to the center of the earth. Thus, if someone wants to dig a tunnel under your skyscraper, they have to pay you whatever you want to charge them. If you're the typical New York real estate mogul, that will, indeed be a very, very high figure. This is in addition to the cost of whatever technical measures are needed to keep the skyscraper you're tunneling under from falling down.
Thank you for your answer.
To me that is a very strange sitution, as in my state NSW, at least, all sub surface rights are retained by the "crown" [the state government], if they want a tunnel [or a mine for that matter] they simply order it & in the case a tunnel you get nothing unless it causes damage to your assets in which the usual property laws apply.
 

neroden

Conductor
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
8,307
Location
Ithaca, NY
Yep, that's how it works in the US where the rights aren't separated, and in most of NY they aren't. I own rights to the center of the earth for my house, for instance.

The government can eminent-domain an easement for a tunnel. So the skyscraper owner can't charge *arbitrary* amounts. The courts will rule on the "fair value" of the underground easement necessary for the tunnel, and then the transit agency would pay that much in a forced sale. But it can be a long, slow process involving lots of lawyers.
 

Andrew

OBS Chief
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
556
So if we only had to do one trans-hudson tunnel Project, than is Gateway the best use of taxpayer's money?
 

west point

Conductor
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
2,548
Andrew: Your question may mislead some to think you mean just one bore.. Just a gentle reminder to persons new to these discussions. International tunnel constructions specifications are rigid.. Any tunnel system now built has to have at least 2 separate bores connected by cross passageways approximately every 800 feet. That is for fire protection and escape ways for passengers.
 

joelkfla

OBS Chief
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Messages
564
Location
12 miles from Walt Disney World
Andrew: Your question may mislead some to think you mean just one bore.. Just a gentle reminder to persons new to these discussions. International tunnel constructions specifications are rigid.. Any tunnel system now built has to have at least 2 separate bores connected by cross passageways approximately every 800 feet. That is for fire protection and escape ways for passengers.
Is that just for underwater crossings? The BART Phase II extension in San Jose is proposed to be single bore.
 

Willbridge

OBS Chief
AU Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
933
Location
Denver
If you own a parcel of land, you own it all the way down to the center of the earth. Thus, if someone wants to dig a tunnel under your skyscraper, they have to pay you whatever you want to charge them. If you're the typical New York real estate mogul, that will, indeed be a very, very high figure. This is in addition to the cost of whatever technical measures are needed to keep the skyscraper you're tunneling under from falling down.
The Edmonton LRT tunnel between Central and Churchill Station goes under a bank. There were jokes about how they came in within budget after they went under the vault. As photo 010 shows the clearance was a bit tight.

1977 047.jpg

010.jpg

015.jpg
 

joelkfla

OBS Chief
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Messages
564
Location
12 miles from Walt Disney World
Are you sure it will have no emergency exits to the surface? Is it an under water tunnel?
No, it's just a subway, under dry land. That's why I asked if you were only talking about underwater tunnels.

From what I've seen, it is planned to be a single-bore tunnel built with a boring machine, not cut-and-cover. The 2 tracks will be stacked most of the way.

I guess it depends on how you define "tunnel".
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
28,335
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
The best description I could find of BART VTA Phase II is:


If the stacked configuration uses a fireproof floor for the upper level then clearly there is plenty of escape routes. For the non stacked parts there appears to be frequent enough stations or ventilation shafts. So I don't really see why they would require a second tube for those. In any case, I would be quite surprised if their design does not meet current fire codes.
 

Andrew

OBS Chief
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
556
Can you provide a citation or a reference to a document that presents this or otherwise point to a source? Thanks.

There is a reason I ask this question.

Water Tunnel 1 is nowhere near the path of the projected tunnels 5 and 6. You are probably confusing yourself with the recollection that eastward construction from the earlier ARC deep station under 34th St was blocked by Water Tunnel 1. But that is history, long gone and hopefully forgotten.

The main problem for breaking out to the east from NYPSS is the 7th Ave subway and the 6th Ave subway and PATH tunnels, both of which slope downwards to the south and are a little deeper at 31st or 30th Sts, than at 32nd and 33rd St.

This was discovered in early planning and according to folks at Amtrak NEC Capital Projects (Drew Galloway - now at PB), they changed plans to make the NYPSS tracks (and hence platforms) at a slightly greater depth (~10-15') than the rest of Penn Station so as to be able to needle those tunnels through the maze to the east that it has to pass through while staying within the ruling gradient limits, if and when they get built. Right now there is neither any plan or funding nor any EIS to do so.

Incidentally it was also Drew Galloway who spearheaded the entire effort to build the approach tunnel under the West Side development to preserve an entry into Penn Station from the projected new Hudson Tunnels.

As for Penn South becoming the main Amtrak station, that is pure speculation based on not much.

Incidentally the grand visionary plan for Penn South also has a four track very deep station under the same Block 780 in a bored tunnel, for use by High Speed service. This is deep enough to not interfere with Tunnel 1, and involves all sorts of additional under river tunnels, and hence unlikely to see the proverbial light of the day. :) Maybe you are confusing that part of the draft document with the 8 track Penn South that Cuomo is talking about?
I wonder if it would make more sense for one of new Gateway tubes to link up with the westbound express track in Secaucus Junction instead of both new tubes beginning on the south side of the current hudson tunnels?

Also, why not extend tracks from Hoboken Terminal to another location within Manhattan--instead of Penn Station?
 

MARC Rider

Conductor
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
3,177
Location
Baltimore. MD
Also, why not extend tracks from Hoboken Terminal to another location within Manhattan--instead of Penn Station?
Because they've already done most of the planning and engineering studies for this alignment, and it might be nice to have new tunnels built before the end of the 23rd Century when we're going to have Star Trek style teleportation everywhere, anyway.
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
28,335
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
Some proposals for improving the ambiance in the old Penn Station complex....

 

MisterUptempo

Service Attendant
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
245
Location
Chicago, IL
Some proposals for improving the ambiance in the old Penn Station complex....

Well, I guess it's better than nothing. I guess...

For what should be the premier rail facility located in the nation's largest city, this presentation says a lot about where the nation's priorities are. It's a totally half-assed, compromised proposal, put forth just so we don't have to inconvenience the owner of a couple of middling sports franchises. Time to throw the Dolans out, once and for all.

The original Penn Station is gone and we can't ever have it back. But the need for a facility designed to address rail transport needs first, and everything else a distant second, is as vital now as it was when Penn was first built. The need will only grow over time. Let fix it right this time.

The idiom "putting good money after bad" describes this proposal perfectly.
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
28,335
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
The Draft EIS for the real estate development proposed around Penn Station that will fund part of the redevelopment of Penn Station can be found at:

Empire State Complex Draft Environmental Impact Statement

Chapter 1 contains pretty complete and understandable overview. Appendix H is about Hotel Pennsylvania and the decision to demolish it. It does have several nice photos of the building.
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
28,335
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
Progress! Finally!
A critical federal component of the Hudson tunnel project, part of the Gateway Programme on the Northeast Corridor (NEC), has received a Final Environment Impact Statement (EIS) and Record of Decision (ROD) from the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) and Federal Transit Administration (FTA).
 

Andrew

OBS Chief
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
556
Progress! Finally!


This is great news!

But, does anyone think that studying a new alignment into a different part of Manhattan--instead of building new tunnels into Penn Station--would have been better than Gateway?

If so, where would these tunnels be built to?
 

me_little_me

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
4,107
This is great news!

But, does anyone think that studying a new alignment into a different part of Manhattan--instead of building new tunnels into Penn Station--would have been better than Gateway?

If so, where would these tunnels be built to?
NO MORE STUDIES! The project needs to get done. Another study might kill the project if the delay is long enough.
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
28,335
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
This is great news!

But, does anyone think that studying a new alignment into a different part of Manhattan--instead of building new tunnels into Penn Station--would have been better than Gateway?
No one interested in getting something built before the 23rd century thinks so.
If so, where would these tunnels be built to?
The question is moot :D
 

west point

Conductor
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
2,548
Parts of the EIS interesting.
1. If both old bores were shut at same time capacity into NYP thru new bores would not be as great as the 2 old bores. Track configuration problems ? Penn south will probably solve that problem ?
2. Safety systems in old bores have to be upgraded before rehab can start. EIS said systems are not separate.
3. PCBs may be on floor of tunnel maybe leaking from GG=1s ? MYA L tunnel certainly did not have to worry about PCBs !
 

neroden

Conductor
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
8,307
Location
Ithaca, NY
Parts of the EIS interesting.
1. If both old bores were shut at same time capacity into NYP thru new bores would not be as great as the 2 old bores. Track configuration problems ? Penn south will probably solve that problem ?
Yes.

2. Safety systems in old bores have to be upgraded before rehab can start. EIS said systems are not separate.
3. PCBs may be on floor of tunnel maybe leaking from GG=1s ? MYA L tunnel certainly did not have to worry about PCBs !
Yeah, would be from GG-1s. Yucko.
 
Top