Gateway Project/NYP capacity Improvement

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Touchdowntom9

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Unavailability of funding to be able to build a four track bridge and the new tunnels at the same time. Also a two track portal does create show stopping congestion for the envisaged traffic for the next 15 years.
Where exactly is the second bridge supposed to be built? Can’t really find any maps online, but is it supposed to be built where the current bridge stands today while the portal north is being build slightly north of the current bridge? Or will this be more offset? Seems like the completion of both bridges will be equally as important as the new tunnels given capacity won’t increase without all of those projects being completed
 

jis

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Did you mean to have a "not" in there?
Yup. Fixed. Thanks.
Where exactly is the second bridge supposed to be built? Can’t really find any maps online, but is it supposed to be built where the current bridge stands today while the portal north is being build slightly north of the current bridge? Or will this be more offset? Seems like the completion of both bridges will be equally as important as the new tunnels given capacity won’t increase without all of those projects being completed
It will be north of the current bridge.

Effective capacity will actually increase even without the new bridge simply because of removal of congestion at A interlocking. At present A interlocking is the blocking factor, not the two track infrastructure west of it. The second set of tunnels will alleviate that to a large extent.

As I said before, the additional capacity will be needed in 15 years when additional platform capacity becomes available at Penn Station, hopefully. As it stands even now, full capacity is needed for only one hour each way each day.

One unknown is whether demand for peak traffic will grow as was projected before given the nature of office usage as it changes following the COVID experience. That is currently an unknown. If peak hour demand does not grow as fast as was projected then growing facilities to support such need not take place as fast either.
 
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Andrew

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Yup. Fixed. Thanks.

It will be north of the current bridge.

Effective capacity will actually increase even without the new bridge simply because of removal of congestion at A interlocking. At present A interlocking is the blocking factor, not the two track infrastructure west of it. The second set of tunnels will alleviate that to a large extent.

As I said before, the additional capacity will be needed in 15 years when additional platform capacity becomes available at Penn Station, hopefully. As it stands even now, full capacity is needed for only one hour each way each day.

One unknown is whether demand for peak traffic will grow as was projected before given the nature of office usage as it changes following the COVID experience. That is currently an unknown. If peak hour demand does not grow as fast as was projected then growing facilities to support such need not take place as fast either.

Even if trans-hudson train ridership never returns to 2019 levels, new hudson tunnels are needed to provide a more resilient infrastructure and to provide redundancy during service outages.

Also, which one hour each weekday is Penn Station full? (7--8 am or 8--9 am in the morning and which afternoon hour are you referring to)?
 

jis

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Even if trans-hudson train ridership never returns to 2019 levels, new hudson tunnels are needed to provide a more resilient infrastructure and to provide redundancy during service outages.

Also, which one hour each weekday is Penn Station full? (7--8 am or 8--9 am in the morning and which afternoon hour are you referring to)?
No one has suggested that the new tunnels are not needed. Why are you shadow boxing that point? 🤔

Also nothing has been said about Penn Station being full.
 

jis

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I should have used the word throughput since I was talking about flow rates on the Portal Bridge. The blockage is not due to platform occupancy but due to congestion at the western throat caused by conflicting moves that will be reduced with additional platforms on the south side. The full 26tph is barely used over a 60-70 minute window in the 7am to 9am period AFAIR.
 

west point

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For a long time I could not understand the building of Portal South. That was my mistake. It appears from what I have seen that there is not space south of the present swing bridge to build the second bridge. So what appears to be the plan is once Portal North is fully operational the swing bridge will be removed and Portal south will then be built on the swing bridge's alignment.

North of the North Portal bridge does not have space to build a 4 track bridge. Remember PATH's Harrison station is having to be moved north as much as possible to just clear Portal North's 2 tracks.

What the plans are for financing is left to the future. Since Portal south will have ramps rising to make freeboard clearances the slopped grades will be quite a bit wider at the base than at the track level.
 

jis

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North of the North Portal bridge does not have space to build a 4 track bridge. Remember PATH's Harrison station is having to be moved north as much as possible to just clear Portal North's 2 tracks.
PATH's Harrison station, which is miles away from Portal, has no relevance to the Portal Bridge. The Portal Bridge tracks pretty much join the original alignment by Swift interlocking. Even the additional tracks after Portal South is constructed, all are slated to fit within the Amtrak RoW in the Swift area, and most certainly through Hudson Yard west of Swift.

In Harrison station the eastbound PATH track will need to be moved in order to make room for track 4, but that has nothing to do with the Portal project or the location of the Portal North bridge.
 

Touchdowntom9

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Yup. Fixed. Thanks.

It will be north of the current bridge.

Effective capacity will actually increase even without the new bridge simply because of removal of congestion at A interlocking. At present A interlocking is the blocking factor, not the two track infrastructure west of it. The second set of tunnels will alleviate that to a large extent.

As I said before, the additional capacity will be needed in 15 years when additional platform capacity becomes available at Penn Station, hopefully. As it stands even now, full capacity is needed for only one hour each way each day.

One unknown is whether demand for peak traffic will grow as was projected before given the nature of office usage as it changes following the COVID experience. That is currently an unknown. If peak hour demand does not grow as fast as was projected then growing facilities to support such need not take place as fast either.
So this tunnel project along with the renovations to Penn Station (Penn South) include the removal of the bottleneck found in A Interlocking?
And one other question, is the eventual result of this project that Amtrak will use Penn South, while NJT and LIRR would utilize the same platforms that they do today? Or will there be a shuffling of platforms for each transit agency. Sorry for the avalanche but doesnt seem very easy to find details on these things via some puffed up press release materials
 

Touchdowntom9

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PATH's Harrison station, which is miles away from Portal, has no relevance to the Portal Bridge. The Portal Bridge tracks pretty much join the original alignment by Swift interlocking. Even the additional tracks after Portal South is constructed, all are slated to fit within the Amtrak RoW in the Swift area, and most certainly through Hudson Yard west of Swift.

In Harrison station the eastbound PATH track will need to be moved in order to make room for track 4, but that has nothing to do with the Portal project or the location of the Portal North bridge.
Is that required relocation of the eastbound PATH track included in any of the funded/active projects ongoing? Because didn't they just build a brand new PATH station there? Looking at a map, you are correct in pointing out that at Harrison there seems to be a pinch and I don't know how they would plan on having 4 tracks + 2 path tracks without either repo'ing track between agencies and building a new one or some other major lift
 
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