Green River to Denver is Cheaper than Glenwood Springs to Denver

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.

SubwayNut

Conductor
Joined
Nov 17, 2011
Messages
1,596
Location
South Bend
Next month I need to go from Glenwood Springs to Denver. I randomly checked the date I want from Green River to Denver and its $59, but getting on two stops and 3 hours LATER at Glenwood Springs is $67. Grand Junction is even more ridiculous its presently $86 (vs. $59). If I was going the other direction I'd totally book Green River and just say I'm actually getting off in Glenwood Springs, it was cheaper. I guess with eTickets I can't that off, getting on that much later.

Amtrak buckets don't make sense. One time I miss paper tickets.
 
I agree that the pricing should fairly be mileage based, not market based

I don't know the details about e-ticketing, but what would happen if you did book Green River to Denver, and then tried to board at Glenwood Springs? Would they say your reservation was a 'no-show', and deny you from boarding? Not clear how it works...... :huh:
 
If passengers from Glenwood Springs are less price sensitive, so that Amtrak can charge more for a ticket from Glenwood Springs to Denver than they can charge from Green River, why shouldn't they charge more? Shouldn't Amtrak maximize its revenue?
 
All about supply and demand. Very few people get on at Green River, passengers to Las Vegas don't realize that it's the best connecting point to Las Vegas and connect at Salt Lake City instead. Then Glenwood Springs and Grand Junction are both tourist destinations, which Green River isn't.

I'm sure this would change if Amtrak actually publicized the connection at Green River to Las Vegas, but it requires an overnight stop. IMO still a lot better than connecting at SLC, Los Angeles, or Kingman, but that would change the supply-and-demand status quo.
 
I don't know the details about e-ticketing, but what would happen if you did book Green River to Denver, and then tried to board at Glenwood Springs? Would they say your reservation was a 'no-show', and deny you from boarding? Not clear how it works...... :huh:
You would not be denied boarding, but your reservation would have been cancelled way before the time you boarded (because you were a no-show). Then you would have to purchase a ticket on board from the conductor. They can now only sell tickets at the highest bucket - which is probably higher than either the $67 or $86 fares!
 
There are certain markets that Amtrak has to put limits on in order to preserve longer-distance space for through passengers. Denver into the Rockies is one such market (Denver-Glenwood Springs is one of the largest markets for the Zephyr), EMY/SAC-RNO is another. I believe that CHI-DEN is even subject to limitations at times.

One of three things is therefore happening: Either Amtrak has bumped the shorter-distance market into a higher bucket because of space limitations (i.e. 50% of through space is taken vs. 80% of the allocated short-haul space); Amtrak is pumping up the buckets for a known, popular tourist run; or there's a higher bucket set for Denver-Glenwood Springs than beyond (not unlike the Atlanta situation on the Crescent).
 
I don't know the details about e-ticketing, but what would happen if you did book Green River to Denver, and then tried to board at Glenwood Springs? Would they say your reservation was a 'no-show', and deny you from boarding? Not clear how it works...... :huh:
You would not be denied boarding, but your reservation would have been cancelled way before the time you boarded (because you were a no-show). Then you would have to purchase a ticket on board from the conductor. They can now only sell tickets at the highest bucket - which is probably higher than either the $67 or $86 fares!
Or you call Antrak, tell them tht u missed the train, but will get on, with ur ticket, at GS instead.

It could work......
 
If it was last month when missing your train simply got you an eVoucher and not the total loss of the ticket value I'd be tempted to try it. Now though I could see loosing all of my Green River ticket value plus having to buy a new ticket from Glenwood Springs, not worth the expensive experiment.

Also Swadian, I'm considering taking Greyhound for my Glenwood Springs to Denver leg instead. (I've ridden the CZ through the mountains many times). The Greyhound website lists the afternoon bus stopping first at the Glenwood Springs Station on the edge of town followed by the Glnwood Springs Amtra since this bus is a throughway connection (for Vail ect.) Greyhound's website though won't let me book a ticket from Glnwood Springs Amtra to Denver. In this case do you think I can board the bus at the Amtrak station with a ticket from the Glenwood Springs bus stop that is unmanned and on the edge of town?

The last thing I want to do is miss it, the next bus/train isn't until the next day!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
They can now only sell tickets at the highest bucket - which is probably higher than either the $67 or $86 fares!
I thought that they sold them at the current bucket, whatever that was. The change was from them selling at low bucket on the train without regard for what the bucket was moments prior.

If passengers from Glenwood Springs are less price sensitive, so that Amtrak can charge more for a ticket from Glenwood Springs to Denver than they can charge from Green River, why shouldn't they charge more? Shouldn't Amtrak maximize its revenue?
Agreed completely. They're running a business, not a charity.
 
Next month I need to go from Glenwood Springs to Denver. I randomly checked the date I want from Green River to Denver and its $59, but getting on two stops and 3 hours LATER at Glenwood Springs is $67. Grand Junction is even more ridiculous its presently $86 (vs. $59). If I was going the other direction I'd totally book Green River and just say I'm actually getting off in Glenwood Springs, it was cheaper. I guess with eTickets I can't that off, getting on that much later.

Amtrak buckets don't make sense. One time I miss paper tickets.
This pricing scheme is ridiculous and shouldn't be operated. I assume it's done because Amtrak's ticketing system is ancient and creaky and incapable of being programmed to be more sensible.
It's all very well for Amtrak to raise the price from Grand Junction to Denver to $86, but if they do that, they should raise the price for Green River to Denver to $86 too. Otherwise they're throwing away money. (For the math-impaired, I'll make this clear: every passenger from Green River to Denver is occupying a seat from Grand Junction to Denver, which could presumably have been sold for more money.)

Is Amtrak supposed to be running a business, or is Amtrak supposed to be running a charity for people in Green River? Think about it. At the moment Amtrak is doing the latter, running a charity by minimizing its revenue.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Next month I need to go from Glenwood Springs to Denver. I randomly checked the date I want from Green River to Denver and its $59, but getting on two stops and 3 hours LATER at Glenwood Springs is $67. Grand Junction is even more ridiculous its presently $86 (vs. $59). If I was going the other direction I'd totally book Green River and just say I'm actually getting off in Glenwood Springs, it was cheaper. I guess with eTickets I can't that off, getting on that much later.

Amtrak buckets don't make sense. One time I miss paper tickets.
This pricing scheme is ridiculous and shouldn't be operated. I assume it's done because Amtrak's ticketing system is ancient and creaky and incapable of being programmed to be more sensible.
It's all very well for Amtrak to raise the price from Grand Junction to Denver to $86, but if they do that, they should raise the price for Green River to Denver to $86 too. Otherwise they're throwing away money. (For the math-impaired, I'll make this clear: every passenger from Green River to Denver is occupying a seat from Grand Junction to Denver, which could presumably have been sold for more money.)

Is Amtrak supposed to be running a business, or is Amtrak supposed to be running a charity for people in Green River? Think about it. At the moment Amtrak is doing the latter, running a charity by minimizing its revenue.
You're assuming that passengers paying less from Green River displace passengers paying more for from Grand Junction or Glenwood Springs. That would only be the case if the train were completely full, which I doubt is the case this time of year.

If the demand for travel to Denver from the latter two cities is not particularly price-elastic (say you're going to sell 22 tickets per day if the price is $59, and 20 if the price is $89), and demand from Green River is strongly affected by price, it's obviously in Amtrak's interest to charge the higher price for the shorter distance trip.
 
They can now only sell tickets at the highest bucket - which is probably higher than either the $67 or $86 fares!
I thought that they sold them at the current bucket, whatever that was. The change was from them selling at low bucket on the train without regard for what the bucket was moments prior.
From Amtrak.com:
On most Amtrak trains, only the full, undiscounted, unrestricted fare will be available for purchase onboard the train. ... To secure the best available fare, passengers should purchase tickets prior to boarding the trains.
Emphasis mine.
The exceptions are unreserved trains such as the Surfliners where there are no buckets.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I take "full, undiscounted , unrestricted fare" to be high bucket, not bucket #2 out of #5! Also, that linked thread has every post from January 2013 - over a year ago and prior to the change in purchase of onboard tickets .
 
I think you're reading it wrong, and the thread is describing the change of onboard ticket fares.

Unless you can find a later thread that describes the change from current bucket to full bucket.
 
Okay, okay....so it's 'good business' to gouge passengers fair market value even though other passengers occupying the same car, but a much longer distance, are paying less.

Wonder what people think of this, if they just happen to discover this in talking to fellow traveler's?

And what about the situation where you book Denver to Green River for a lower fare, and then get off at Glenwood Springs? Are they going to try to get you to pay the higher fare before letting you off ? I don't think so........
 
Okay, okay....so it's 'good business' to gouge passengers fair market value even though other passengers occupying the same car, but a much longer distance, are paying less.

Wonder what people think of this, if they just happen to discover this in talking to fellow traveler's?

And what about the situation where you book Denver to Green River for a lower fare, and then get off at Glenwood Springs? Are they going to try to get you to pay the higher fare before letting you off ? I don't think so........
Amtrak learned this from the Airlines where often times almost everyone of the Flight has Paid a Different Fare, sometimes as much as several Hundred Dollars Difference and also Flights from Airports out in the Sticks(Short Hops) to a Hub can Cost more than a Coast to Coast Flight! :rolleyes:

Glenwood Springs is a Very Popular "Get-Away" Place for Denverites, I dont Blame Amtrak for Charging what the Market will Allow, there are no Poor People going to Glenwood Springs for a Holiday!
 
I could accept airlines charging more for short flights in a typical 'hub and spoke' operation, than longer flights, all based on market demand. But that is different than say on a one stop flight, charging more for the first stop, then the further stop, which is what Amtrak is doing in essence....

I accept Amtrak charging more in high demand markets per mile, such as the Northeast Corridor, versus other parts of the country, but again don't think it's 'fair' on any particular route to give those traveling further a lower fare than those traveling a shorter segment.
 
It comes down to basic supply and demand.

This is exactly the same as charging $3.49 for gas in my city, whereas my parents, who live in a major tourist destination on I-75 (the busiest interstate in Michigan during holiday weekends) pay $3.99 or more. Of course those gas stations are going to charge more. It would be stupid not to. Everyone headed to the U.P. for the weekend fills up in their city because it's one of the last gas stops before you get into the Middle of Nowhere.

So, yeah. If I have local passengers boarding in Itty Bitty Town, I'm going to charge them $50. If I have a slew of tourist passengers boarding in Popular Skiing Area, I'm going to charge them $75.

This also applies to major cities, like Chicago. If I own a hotel that's out by the airport and is a 45-minute Blue Line ride to the Loop, you're paying $90/night. If I own a hotel that's within a mile of Navy Pier, Michigan Ave, and the Hancock Center, I'm charging you $200/night on weekdays and $300/night on weekends. If it's Memorial Day, Fourth of July, or Labor Day, you're getting nailed for $400.

You know why?

Because people will pay.

Maybe that makes me Scrooge McDuck, but if it means more revenue and means I can pay my employees a decent living wage and give them benefits plus a retirement package, then heck yeah I'm going to charge as much as I can get away with. If I start losing business, I can adjust my rates. Simple as that. That, ladies and gents, is the bucket system. :hi:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
SubwayNut, you asked about Greyhound, Greyhound's changed a lot very quickly. It used to be perfectly possible to board at a later station than ticketed, but I don't know for sure what the current policy is. Greyhound used to have unreserved seating, which led to "overbooking", actually it was just what you see on the subways of New York, there were sometimes too many people and too little seats, so they had to wait for the next bus. Now Greyhound is progressively eradicating overbooking, and things have gotten much less flexible.

If you don't want to get off at the Denver Bus Center, you can surely get off at Denver Amtrak, where the bus stops just before the Bus Center. Just explain to the driver, he won't mind you getting off early.

Frankly, the driver probably won't mind you getting on late, at small bus stops the driver just looks over your tickets, checks your ID, and waves you aboard. There's no electronic component, so he wouldn't really care if you got on late. After all he earns his pay either way.

Here's the timetable: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/schedules2/pdf/555.pdf. This bus actually has Wi-Fi but I don't know how reliable it is on this route.

The scenery isn't bad at all and if you snatch a seat at the front, you get a great "cab ride" view. It seems like a lot of the seats at the very front at left empty, even though they are no longer blocked. For $24 in advance, not a bad deal, though I've seen better.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I could accept airlines charging more for short flights in a typical 'hub and spoke' operation, than longer flights, all based on market demand. But that is different than say on a one stop flight, charging more for the first stop, then the further stop, which is what Amtrak is doing in essence....

I accept Amtrak charging more in high demand markets per mile, such as the Northeast Corridor, versus other parts of the country, but again don't think it's 'fair' on any particular route to give those traveling further a lower fare than those traveling a shorter segment.
Airlines used to do this too, where fares were cheaper buying a "through" ticket to another destination after a connecting city than to the connecting city itself. Savvy passengers would buy the ticket to the continuing city, and then just get off at the connecting city and never board the connecting flight.
 
don't think it's 'fair'
I've never found the word "fair" to have much meaning when money is involved.

A question that seems to me to have more meaning is this: is Amtrak maximizing revenue? If they are (or doing as well as they can with their antiquated reservation system), good for them.

In other words, pretty much what SarahZ said.
 
we used to call this short hopping on the airlines. I lived in DesMoines and there were a couple of United flights, I want to say to Denver (this is over 30 years ok? give the old man a memory lapse) that were half the cost of going to DSM. I would just buy the longer flight and get off.
 
Yeah, with FF miles airlines have started dropping the hammer on this practice, threatening people with revocation of their FF miles if they "Abuse the system".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top