how much is this costing amtrak?

[yarrow]

i guess i have got a bee in my bonnet over this but it seems to me one of the most idiotic things, out of many, that i have known amtrak to do. many previously bookable, guaranteed connections from spokane,wa(and other cities east of sea/pdx to the continental divide)are no longer bookable as such. if i try, for example, to book spokane to denver on amtrak.com i get the following message:

Problem Finding Service: Sorry, we cannot find train service matching your request. Please try alternate stations/cities. To learn more about trains available at a particular station, please click on the 'Stations' tab above.
[Error ID: 108A]

if i call amtrak the connection is bookable as a multi- city trip but with no guaranteed connection between the cs and cz even though there are 4.5 hours layover between the two trains. spokane to san diego? same message. spokane to albuquerque, spokane to el paso or points in between on these routes. no can do.

how much business has amtrak lost because of this idiotic change? how many people have said "let's check the train for our visit to aunt lauretta this summer", gotten the above message and given up on the idea. maybe they went ahead and called an amtrak agent and learned that previously guaranteed connections are no longer and opted for something more reliable.

check some trips from your home that were ok in the past and see what they are now.

 

[Triley]

On the flip side, how much money is it saving us by not guaranteeing these connections at this time, and not having to hire taxis, charter buses, or fly people to their final destination? Or having to pay for one's hotel and meals for a night due to a missed connection, for that matter? At least this way we will avoid the bad press and word of mouth of the missed connections.

I'm not sure if you saw the thread, but there are some connections that have been added back as guaranteed ones, recently. So when the time comes that Amtrak feels they can guarantee the connection, I'm sure it'll be added back.

 

[afigg]

i guess i have got a bee in my bonnet over this but it seems to me one of the most idiotic things, out of many, that i have known amtrak to do. many previously bookable, guaranteed connections from spokane,wa(and other cities east of sea/pdx to the continental divide)are no longer bookable as such. if i try, for example, to book spokane to denver on amtrak.com i get the following message:

Looks to me that there has been a Sunday early AM software update to the reservation system which has a bug. I tried other city combinations and it appears that in some circumstances, it can't handle more than 1 connecting train. Spokane to RVR does not work either, for example.
It will probably be fixed in the next day or two, once someone points out the bug (or files an error report). Should have been caught in testing before releasing the software or database update, though.

 

[oregon pioneer]

The OP's contention is that if the connection from the EB to the CS is guaranteed, and the connection form the CS to the CZ is guaranteed, why can't he do the EB to the CS to the CZ (or even SWC or SL)?? The OP's originating station is on the EB.

I just checked a couple of trips out of Bend, Oregon (BND) that include the CS and CZ. Both are still valid, as they were before. I think that all the connections have to be manually re-entered after the new schedule is in effect. I think this is a problem with not all connections from all stations being entered into the system since the change in EB schedule.

I believe the only way to get that accomplished for YOUR station combo is to go back to the Amtrak Insider at Flyertalk. I had to do this once. I did not receive a reply immediately, so some time later I whimpered gently to him that I had not heard back, did I do anything wrong in my post? I immediately received a reply and apology that he was so busy, he had not had a chance to see my message and reply to me yet. He got the connecting trains from BND fixed within a day after that.

So, if you have not heard back, try again. He really is nice, he tries to please, and I'll bet he is swamped right now.

 

[Ispolkom]

I personally would be very surprised if most of the three-train connections yarrow mentions are ever restored. What do Denver, Albuquerque, and El Paso have in common? They are zone-boundary cities. People paying for their own tickets can still book those routes, but eliminating the routing from amtrak.com means that you can't book those trips as one AGR routing.

I've only been booking long-distance AGR redemptions since 2008, but over those six years I've seen an increasing tightening of what can be booked. First loophole trips went away, then there came a greater and greater emphasis on only allowing routings that show on they system. Next, many circuitous routings that were still allowed under new rules disappeared, and agents seem unaware of special rules, like the overnight in Portland, or allowing a transfer from the California Zephyr to the Coast Starlight.

I think what is happening is that parts (at least) of Amtrak are doing their best to discourage what they consider abuses of the system. That's their perogative, of course, as it's their sandbox. Of course it makes it harder for people like me who live in flyover country to use AGR, since I have to rely on two trains a day that often don't make connections. I don't imagine, though, that's a big concern.

 

[yarrow]

I personally would be very surprised if most of the three-train connections yarrow mentions are ever restored. What do Denver, Albuquerque, and El Paso have in common? They are zone-boundary cities. People paying for their own tickets can still book those routes, but eliminating the routing from amtrak.com means that you can't book those trips as one AGR routing.

you are probably right but even when you purchase these itineraries the connection to the eastbound train is no longer guaranteed. that would give me pause before i bought my ticket

 

[Bjartmarr]

It does kind of boggle the mind that individual connections must be manually entered. This is the nineties! The decade of the Digital Revolution!

(Uh, I mean, the nineties were two decades ago...)

Arrow should never respond with the above "you can't get there from here" message. That it does so, and so often, sounds like a failure on the programmers' part. Instead, it should offer you the best routings available -- even if those routings include an overnight layover.

Due to the very limited number of trains, this sort of routefinding problem should be really easy to write a program to solve. I would expect that a replacement or overhaul of Arrow would pay for itself very quickly, in increased bookings and decreased customer service costs. And I suspect the reason it hasn't been done is a lack of a dedicated chunk of money to do it. Kind of reminds you of the sleeper-car situation, doesn't it?

 

[Ispolkom]

That it does so, and so often, sounds like a failure on the programmers' part. Instead, it should offer you the best routings available -- even if those routings include an overnight layover.

My impression is that the no-overnight-layover thing is a feature demanded by Amtrak, not a failure of programmers. I seem to remember AGR Insider suggesting that Operations really didn't like the idea of people stranded overnight, and the absurd circuitous routings were the result (For instance, I once traveled Houston-LA-Portland-St. Paul because Houston-Longview-Chicago (overnight)-St. Paul wasn't allowed.) Why this concern? Beats me.

 

[Bjartmarr]

I didn't mean to lay the blame on the coders -- I'm sure they're doing the best with what they have available.

But at some point, somebody said, "Well, we could write a system that takes as input all the trains and all the guaranteed connections and then automatically generates several ways to get from A to B. Or we could write a system where you have to input every single city pair, and then when you input A and B, the system spits back one of the pre-entered route choices. Hey, let's do the latter."

That person messed up bad.

Unless they made that decision in the 1980's, and computers couldn't figure out how to do the former yet. Which, knowing Amtrak, isn't actually all that unlikely.

As for overnights, I would much rather be offered the option that includes the overnight. Perhaps it could offer to let the passenger buy accomodations at a local hotel? Sounds like a revenue source to me.

 

[oregon pioneer]

I personally would be very surprised if most of the three-train connections yarrow mentions are ever restored. What do Denver, Albuquerque, and El Paso have in common? They are zone-boundary cities. People paying for their own tickets can still book those routes, but eliminating the routing from amtrak.com means that you can't book those trips as one AGR routing.

I've only been booking long-distance AGR redemptions since 2008, but over those six years I've seen an increasing tightening of what can be booked. First loophole trips went away, then there came a greater and greater emphasis on only allowing routings that show on they system. Next, many circuitous routings that were still allowed under new rules disappeared, and agents seem unaware of special rules, like the overnight in Portland, or allowing a transfer from the California Zephyr to the Coast Starlight.

I think what is happening is that parts (at least) of Amtrak are doing their best to discourage what they consider abuses of the system. That's their perogative, of course, as it's their sandbox. Of course it makes it harder for people like me who live in flyover country to use AGR, since I have to rely on two trains a day that often don't make connections. I don't imagine, though, that's a big concern.

Hmmmn, you could be right. I just tried SLC -- ELP (a similar three-train routing) and got the same result.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Sounds like we have another unpublished feature like the last room at this price anomaly. Maybe it's a bug. Maybe it's intentional. Either way I wouldn't expect a resolution for months or years. If ever.

 

[yarrow]

Sounds like we have another unpublished feature like the last room at this price anomaly. Maybe it's a bug. Maybe it's intentional. Either way I wouldn't expect a resolution for months or years. If ever.

aw c'mon, why do you have to be so darn realistic?

 

[PaulM]

I personally would be very surprised if most of the three-train connections yarrow mentions are ever restored. What do Denver, Albuquerque, and El Paso have in common? They are zone-boundary cities. People paying for their own tickets can still book those routes, but eliminating the routing from amtrak.com means that you can't book those trips as one AGR routing.

I've only been booking long-distance AGR redemptions since 2008, but over those six years I've seen an increasing tightening of what can be booked. First loophole trips went away, then there came a greater and greater emphasis on only allowing routings that show on they system. Next, many circuitous routings that were still allowed under new rules disappeared, and agents seem unaware of special rules, like the overnight in Portland, or allowing a transfer from the California Zephyr to the Coast Starlight.

I think what is happening is that parts (at least) of Amtrak are doing their best to discourage what they consider abuses of the system. That's their perogative, of course, as it's their sandbox. Of course it makes it harder for people like me who live in flyover country to use AGR, since I have to rely on two trains a day that often don't make connections. I don't imagine, though, that's a big concern.

I disagree with your major point regarding 3-train connections, simply because there are many unpublished 3-train connections in which there is nothing strange, much less abusive, about them. The first one I encountered years ago was GBB-CHI-WAS and CHI-WAS-BAL were published, but not GBB-CHI-WAS-BAL. That one eventually got fixed; but many still exist. The most recent one to bite me was ORL-WAS-CHI-FMD. Nothing odd about that one except that Amtrak operations assumes no one would want to go from Florida to Iowa and therefore refused to publish it.

 

[Ispolkom]

I disagree with your major point regarding 3-train connections, simply because there are many unpublished 3-train connections in which there is nothing strange, much less abusive, about them. The first one I encountered years ago was GBB-CHI-WAS and CHI-WAS-BAL were published, but not GBB-CHI-WAS-BAL. That one eventually got fixed; but many still exist. The most recent one to bite me was ORL-WAS-CHI-FMD. Nothing odd about that one except that Amtrak operations assumes no one would want to go from Florida to Iowa and therefore refused to publish it.

As far as I know, ORL-WAS-CHI-FMD was never a published route. SPK-PDX-SAC-DEN was. When the Empire Builder connections in Portland were restored, as far as I know none of three-train itineraries were put back into the system. Some ought to have been noncontroversial, like say SPK-PDX-SAC-BFD, or SPK-PDX-LAX-SAN. But of the four itineraries yarrow mentioned, three were ones that maximized train time and ended at zone boundaries. I have encounted AGR agents and supervisors who regarded such routings as abusive. Seeing the secular trend of AGR limiting rail-fanish long-distance redemptions I put the two items together.

I'd argue that your example of a three-train itinerary that was added shows what AGR wants. GBB-CHI-WAS-BAL was fixed, but I'd argue that's because there's lots of capacity WAS-BAL, and it's only a $32 ticket in business. Fixing it so that you can travel DEN-SAC-PDX-WPT means allowing one to book a bedroom on the Portland sleeper, which often sells out, and which (double occupancy) runs $834 for a random date in July. That's a much different situation.

Of course, I'm probably overthinking this, forgetting the maxim that one never ascribes to malice what can be explained by incompetence. It's probably sufficient to assume that whoever re-established connections never thought of three-train itineraries, because she never has traveled by train and has a poor grasp of geography.

 

[yarrow]

i heard back from our friend at agr:

The routings are again valid but the connections were not properly restored in the reservation system after the Empire Builder restrictions on connection guarantees were recently lifted. I am working with the relevant team to get these corrected and will update you when complete.

 

[oregon pioneer]

i heard back from our friend at agr:

The routings are again valid but the connections were not properly restored in the reservation system after the Empire Builder restrictions on connection guarantees were recently lifted. I am working with the relevant team to get these corrected and will update you when complete.

Yayyy!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Our connection @ Amtrak/AGR helps out with Connections again!!