Illinois still looking at Quad Cities - Danville train service

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kbmiflyer

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Apparently, some folks in the Illinois house think a Quad Cities - Danville train is a good idea.

As much as I am a big supporter of Amtrak in my home state, this idea just seems silly. The amount of money to build and rebuild lines to be anything close to passenger speed would never justify the cost of connecting six small to midsized cities that are already connected by interstate 74.
 
A Quad Cities route is longer overdue and has been requested by riders for a long time. While some might not see the particular value in this route - I would prefer a train over a bus any day. Definitely would like the option of getting to Peoria by train from Normal. I've been eager to see the Chicago, Quad Cities to Des Moines proposal actually get put into motion.

Yes from my location the drive to Peoria would be shorter than heading to Normal and then heading over West. But certain times of year just not in the mood to drive I-155.

With the comments above - I guess no passenger rail should exist. On the current well ridden Illinois routes - all those cities are connected by major Interstates - so with the mentality above - their should be no need for Amtrak service.

I'm sure the college students in Peoria would also appreciate a new transportation option. Some of the students in other cities might appreciate not having to travel all the way North to Chicago to get home.
 
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I remember "way back when - 1970's" there was a train that went from Dubuque (think) through Rockford into Chicago. There were day trips - at least from Rockford - train - lunch- afternoon theater & back to Rockford all in one day .. Great Fun for a day. We went several times. Sure beat the hassle of driving in Chicago!
 
With the comments above - I guess no passenger rail should exist. On the current well ridden Illinois routes - all those cities are connected by major Interstates - so with the mentality above - their should be no need for Amtrak service.
How do you make the leap from "This route isn't suited for rail service" to "No passenger rail service should exist."??? You are putting words in their mouth. Rail service simply isn't the most logical transportation option in every location. Perhaps the OP would prefer the money be used instead to beef up existing rail service with more frequencies or higher speeds. That sounds like a rational argument. OP is not saying "no passenger rail service should exist."

And yes, the current Illinois routes ARE connected by major interstates...but you're leaving out the inconvenient detail that they ALL start/end in Chicago. That's a game-changer.

Would some people ride between Quad Cities/Danville/intermediate points. Of course. Would enough ride to justify the capital expense needed to start it, as well as the operating subsidy needed to run it? Well, reasonable people can disagree but it's disingenuous to say that arguing against it is the rhetorical equivalent of advocating for no rail service at all.

Sheesh.

/Rant off
 
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Having a route that doesn't go through Chicago makes a lot of sense. There have been numerous discussions on this site about the crowding problems at Union Station. I grew up in Peoria and my Dad worked for NYC's Peoria & Eastern Division which ran from Peoria through Bloomington, Champaign and Danville to Indianapolis. The Cardinal/Hoosier State still uses the Crawfordsville-Indianapolis portion of this line. The RIP line from the Quad Cities to Peoria has been abandoned for years. There would need to be a lot of new alignment to make the proposed route happen. Who said milineals won't' ride trains?
 
Most of the NYC line between Peoria and Champaign is out of service, though the tracks are still there. One portion, between Mansfield and Champaign, is still in use but would most likely require substantial upgrades. My uncle lives about half a mile from this line, between Mansfield and Mahomet, and while visiting there I have observed freights crawl by at a snail's pace.

I don't live in Illinois so however they spend their money is fine by me. :)
 
While I'd love to see rail service return to my hometown (Peoria), I'd really have to question the wisdom of such a route. What kinds of passenger loads could be expected between any of these cities? Maybe students going to/from UofI and/or IllState, but that's highly seasonal.
 
I would not say this route is completely unreasonable. However, it seems that it should not be considered the lowest-hanging fruit on the tree of additional Illinois passenger rail corridors.

This corridor does seem like a great one to expand and improve connecting Thruway service. There was a study in the last few years on connecting Peoria to Amtrak that ended up recommending improved/expanded Thruway connections between Peoria and Normal. Operate dedicated Amtrak Thruway buses, if that makes sense in terms of costs and ridership. Expand Thruway service to other Illinois corridors (possibly Champaign-Springfield, among others).

As for actual rail service, first concentrate on getting the Chicago-Moline and Chicago-Dubuque trains up and running. Also work on improving all of the existing corridors (improving speeds, OTP, adding frequencies, etc).

Once a much more robust Illinois Thruway network has been established and the existing (and currently planned/under construction) corridors are also beefed up, then start to look for additional corridors, potentially including this one (Moline-Galesburg-Peoria-Normal-Champaign).

If we start to look at connections to neighboring states, then this corridor would probably fall behind some of those corridors in my opinion.
 
QC to Danville is a ridiculous idea; passenger loads would be incredibly low....I'd much rather see the line from Quad Cities to CUS to provide transportation to a major rail hub from our area of about a half million popluation (CSA).
 
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QC to Danville is a ridiculous idea; passenger loads would be incredibly low....I'd much rather see the line from Quad Cities to CUS to provide transportation to a major rail hub from our area of about a half million popluation (CSA).
And onward to Des Moines, one could dream, but the lack of support on the Iowa side ensures a Balkanized rail transportation network for the foreseeable future in the Midwest.
No, unfortunately this Quad Cities to Danville boondoggle seems more calculated to garner political support from all of the communities along the route, rather than attract actual passengers.
 
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I guess it would be too much to ask for it to feed into Indianapolis too.
 
I think if the old NYC line still existed to service this route, it might make a little bit of sense. The issue is that the line only exist between Peoria and Bloomington and between Mansfield and Champaign. Peoria - Quad Cities could be serviced by BNSF, but that leaves Bloomington - Danville as a patchwork of different rail lines and out of the way turns and switches.

Chicago - St. Louis does follow I-55, but it follows it the whole way at speeds mostly in excess of the interstate speed limit. This makes it a pretty viable alternative to the interstate.

The rail line as it is now would probably take at least twice as long to go from Quad Cities to Danville, with several train reversals necessary to get to stations in Peoria, Normal, and Champaign.
 
Apparently, some folks in the Illinois house think a Quad Cities - Danville train is a good idea.

As much as I am a big supporter of Amtrak in my home state, this idea just seems silly. The amount of money to build and rebuild lines to be anything close to passenger speed would never justify the cost of connecting six small to midsized cities that are already connected by interstate 74.
Think about this in a more NETWORK fashion. Illinois now has a set of passenger lines radiating out of Chicago and will soon have more. (For reference to those who don't know, Quad Cities to Chicago IS being built and WILL open in a couple of years.)

However, you have to go through Chicago to connect between these lines. This is the orbital line.

If the schedule is designed right, it isn't people going from the Quad Cities to Danville, it's people going from:

- anywhere to Peoria

- Quad Cities / Champaign / Carbondale to Colorado / Kansas City / Albuquerque / California / Springfield / St Louis / Jefferson City / Texas

Danville's a weird place to stop, but I think it's obvious that the plan is really to continue to Lafayette (connecting Indianapolis / Cincinnati to the aforementioned points), but that the state border is getting in the way.

The scheduling would have to be quite finicky to make all of those "bypass Chicago" connections work, but with multiple trains each way on each of the radial corridors, *most* of the connections could be made to work. (Some of the longer-distance ones might fail.)
 
The former NYC P&E line between Peoria and Bloomington is abandoned on most of line because it went via the P&PU to Pekin and then east to Bloomington. The current N&S route between Peoria and Bloomington is the former Nickel Plate Line that went east to Frankfort, Indiana. When I was growing up in Peoria in the early 1950s, there were 2 trains a day, each way between Peoria and Indianapolis. One of them lasted until 1956 and was the last train to use Peoria Union Station. New York Central discontinued the train between Peoria and Pekin in 1956 and from Pekin to Indianapolis in 1957. Peoria, at one time, was quite a hub for railroads and passenger trains. Chicago and Alton had a train between Chicago and Kansas City via Peoria that had through Sleeping Cars to Los Angeles. There were also trains from St. Louis to Minneapolis via Peoria. There was also a through Sleeping Car between Des Moines and Columbus, Ohio via Peoria. The Illinois Terminal Railroad operated frequent service between Peoria and St. Louis and Peoria and Danville until 1956.
 
Another story on this,



http://www.cinewsnow.com/news/local/East-West-Amtrak-Passenger-Corridor-Proposed-254439761.html



For those who are really interested, here is what was passed by the house



http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/98/HJR/PDF/09800HJ0072lv.pdf



My only problem is with this part of the bill "WHEREAS, An East-West passenger rail corridor from the Moline/Rock Island area to Danville, via Galesburg, Peoria, Bloomington-Normal, and Champaign-Urbana, could be constructed using existing railroad lines;"

Are the counting abandoned lines as existing rail lines?
 
If this happens, I hope the schedule would allow a connection with the CONO at Champaign to the Quad Cities.
 
"WHEREAS, An East-West passenger rail corridor from the Moline/Rock Island area to Danville, via Galesburg, Peoria, Bloomington-Normal, and Champaign-Urbana, could be constructed using existing railroad lines;"[/font][/size]

Are the counting abandoned lines as existing rail lines?
Nope, you can do it with existing lines. You WILL need push-pull equipment!

From my handy railroad atlases:

Iowa Interstate (ex-Rock Island, same route as Moline-Chicago) from Moline to Colona

BNSF (ex-CBQ) Colona-Galesburg

Reverse at Galesburg

BNSF (ex-CBQ) Galesburg-Peoria

(Depending on the Peoria station location, you may need to reverse again)

Tazewell & Peoria Railroad (part of Genessee & Wyoming, formerly Peoria & Pekin Union Railroad) across the Illinois River from Peoria to East Peoria

NS (ex-Lake Erie and Western/Nickel Plate) from East Peoria to Bloomington

UP through downtown Bloomington

Reverse again at Bloomington-Normal

Back on to NS heading west

Reverse again to head east

NS ((ex-Lake Erie and Western/Nickel Plate) from Bloomington to Champaign

North onto CN/IC at Champaign

Reverse again

South on CN/IC to Champaign station

South from on CN/IC from Champaign to Tolono

South across the tracks, reverse again, northeast out of Tolono

NS (ex-Wabash) from Tolono to Danville

---

Some trackwork at Bloomington would be desirable, if only because the place where NS connects to and crosses UP (a) doesn't have a junction facing east, and (b) crosses Washington Street twice. A tighter curve could probably be built to avoid the crossings of Washington Street. There's no good way to put in an east-facing junction; restoration of the Illinois Central route through Bloomington would eliminate that piece of backtracking, but that would be a big piece of work.

At Champaign, a south-to-west chord could be built quite easily to eliminate that reversal. The station there would probably need its double track restored, which shouldn't be difficult.

The north-to-east chord could also be reinstated at Tolono to eliminate that reversal, and it looks like this may already have been done (I can't tell from Google maps). Reinstatement of the direct route from Champaign to Danville (next to US 150) would arguably be preferable, but that is abandoned (although the ROW appears to be intact) -- it seems like it would end up at a worse station location in Danville, anyway.

Worth noting: most of this is on the "friendly" class Is, BNSF and NS. It might be necessary to build some extensive trackwork from Champaign to Tolono in order to avoid trouble from CN, but that's not a very long distance. I expect that this project might be divided into stages with Danville being put off.

The problems with the track layout in Bloomington-Normal are more severe and involve UP, and any sane variant of this has to connect with St. Louis trains at Bloomington-Normal, so I expect a substantial amount of the effort in the studies is going to be a matter of figuring out what to do at Bloomington. This could allow for a downtown Bloomington station as well as a Normal station.
 
The scheduling would have to be quite finicky to make all of those "bypass Chicago" connections work, but with multiple trains each way on each of the radial corridors, *most* of the connections could be made to work. (Some of the longer-distance ones might fail.)
I hear you, and in theory this is a good idea. But this is somewhat the equivalent of a suburb-to-suburb commuter rail/transit line. And while these are frequently proposed, there are very few actual cases of these around the country. Even in a major city like Chicago, a suburb-to-suburb commuter rail line has been talked about for years but has never advanced beyond talk. In the Quad Cities-Danville example, it's basically a suburb-to-suburb rail line excepts the suburbs are more far flung. Again, it's not as though the service wouldn't be used. It's just hard to design a service that would serve a critical mass of people to make it pencil out.
 
The scheduling would have to be quite finicky to make all of those "bypass Chicago" connections work, but with multiple trains each way on each of the radial corridors, *most* of the connections could be made to work. (Some of the longer-distance ones might fail.)
I hear you, and in theory this is a good idea. But this is somewhat the equivalent of a suburb-to-suburb commuter rail/transit line. And while these are frequently proposed, there are very few actual cases of these around the country. Even in a major city like Chicago, a suburb-to-suburb commuter rail line has been talked about for years but has never advanced beyond talk. In the Quad Cities-Danville example, it's basically a suburb-to-suburb rail line excepts the suburbs are more far flung. Again, it's not as though the service wouldn't be used. It's just hard to design a service that would serve a critical mass of people to make it pencil out.
This is very different from a suburb-to-suburb commuter rail line because this isn't serving commuter traffic. Commuters tend to be rather intolerant of transfers, and to have very tight schedule tolerances which make it hard to design acceptable transfers unless you have a "turn up and go" (trains every <15 minutes) service frequency. Intercity rail traffic has a different structure. People on non-commuting, intercity trips will change trains if conditions are decent.

Now, would this route be a national priority? Certainly not, I can think of a dozen better routes. But think of it from Illinois's point of view. Illinois isn't building a nationwide rail network, they're building a statewide rail network.

After the Rockford/Dubuque and Moline services (already funded) are in place, what's left for radial services?

There's Peoria, but Peoria can only be reasonably served by a connection to Bloomington/Normal. The possible Peoria to Chicago "radial" routes are slower than making a connection at Normal.

There's Danville, but setting up a Danville-Chicago direct route on CSX and UP seems to have no plausible intermediate stops and would be very questionable as an operation

There's Decatur, but again, the only reasonable way to get to Decatur is on an "orbital" line.

I suppose you could start working on additional radial routes out of St. Louis. But are any of them worth doing as independent lines?

The alternative next step is the orbital route, which *effectively* creates a bunch of radial routes out of St. Louis, but while only having to actually upgrade and operate one route.

So rather than upgrading separate Chicago-Peoria and St. Louis-Peoria routes, you only upgrade one route. Yes, each route is slower than it would be if you built two separate routes, but it's probably fast enough, and it's a more efficient use of resources.

It is going to be tricky to design. In order to get a critical mass of passengers, you have to get *all* the connecting traffic with the *minimum* number of trains per day, since this is never going to be as high-volume as any of the radial lines (and in fact, almost all the traffic will be connecting to the radial lines).

You want to arrive Galesburg before 4 PM (connections to the West)

You want to depart Galesburg after roughly 2 PM (to distribute riders from the West)

You want to arrive Normal before 4PM (connections to Texas)... and before 11:30AM (connections to Jefferson City)

You want to depart Normal after roughly 1 PM (connections from Texas)... and after 6 PM (connections from Jefferson City)

For the sake of Peoria to Chicago traffic, you want to arrive Normal southbound before 8:30 PM

and you want to depart Normal northbound after 9:30 AM

You want to arrive Champaign before 10:30 PM (connections to New Orleans)

You want to depart Champaign after 8 AM (connections from New Orleans)

Is this doable with one-each-way? Well, not quite; the Jefferson City connections don't work at all. Some tweaking of schedules should make everything else work, just about. (Quincy connections would be poor, but that involves so much backtracking it's unlikely to be popular.) All times are intended to be approximate.

Southbound:
Moline 1 PM
Galesburg 2 PM
Peoria 2:45 PM
Normal 3:45 PM
Champaign 4:45 PM
Danville 5:45 PM

Northbound:
Danville 12 Noon
Champaign 1 PM
Normal 2 PM
Peoria 3 PM
Galesburg 3:45 PM
Moline 4:45 PM
That's two trainsets, swapping places each day, and it makes every connection in every direction except for the Missouri River Runner. With time to spare and a pretty relaxed schedule (so it should be doable). More track upgrades would make tighter schedules possible. If baggage service is provided, this could also allow for a relaxation of the connections between the western so-called long-distance trains; it becomes OK for the CZ to arrive Chicago after the TE departs Chicago if the scheduling allows for a connection via the orbital route.
This doesn't allow for a day trip from Peoria to Chicago. So let's consider a different hypothetical schedule: two each way.

For this hypothetical schedule, the first consideration is for passengers from Peoria to catch the first Lincoln Service to Chicago and the last one back. The second consideration is to make the Jefferson City connections. This schedule fails to connect the CZ/SWC to the Texas Eagle, but it gets everything else, and better connections from Danville to Chicago as well. (The Missouri River Runner could be used to replace the misconnect from the SWC to the TE, with some schedule tweaking.) And for the hell of it I extended it to Lafayette; it even makes the Indianapolis connection, theoretically (if the Hoosier State/Cardinal can run on time).

Southbound:
4:45 AM 3:45 PM Moline
5:45 AM 4:45 PM Galesburg
6:45 AM 5:45 PM Peoria
7:00 AM 6:30 PM Normal
8:00 AM 7:30 PM Champaign
9:00 AM 8:30 PM Danville
10:00 AM 9:30 PM Lafayette
(12:00 PM 11:30 PM Indianapolis)

Northbound:
(6:15 AM 4:30 PM Indianapolis)
8:15 AM 6:30 PM Lafayette
9:15 AM 7:30 PM Danville
10:15 AM 8:30 PM Champaign
11:15 AM 9:30 PM Normal
12:15 PM 10:30 PM Peoria
1:00 PM 11:15 PM Galesburg
2:00 PM 12:15 AM Moline
This still requires two trainsets; you end up servicing one in the night at Moline, and one in the day at Danville or Lafayette. (Or you could extend it all the way to Indianapolis and service it at Beech Grove.)
There are probably endless variations of this which can be designed, and faster tracks would allow for better schedules, but my point is that with two trainsets you can make a hell of a lot of connections work. (You can also potentially loosen the scheduling constraints on the one-a-day trains which connect in Chicago, as they don't *all* have to connect *in* Chicago any more.)

Some of these city pairs may seem uncompetitive on time with driving on my suggested (rather slack) schedules, but with all the colleges involved, and with a particularly high rate of carless households in St. Louis, I think the route would still be fairly successful.

It's unfortunate that all planning is going on at the state level, because I can see better unbuilt routes radiating out from Chicago... but they're going to places like Madison, Iowa City, Kenosha, Racine, and Terre Haute, which aren't *in* Illinois. The first two were actually planned and funded and then killed by action of the Wisconsin and Iowa governments; the second two were also killed by hostile state government; the third is not happening mostly due to a hostile state government.

So I understand why Illinois has decided to look out for its own and forget about its anti-rail neighbors. :-( And within the Illinois-only contest, the obvious next route after Moline and Rockford/Davenport is the Champaign-Quad Cities line.

(The route after that would probably be Champaign-Decatur-Springfield. After that, maybe Metra to DeKalb. At that point you've really covered all the actual cities in Illinois, and any remaining money should go to urban routes, or to improve existing lines.)
 
Some interesting developments on the Chicago-Rockford front. Details are sketchy but IL's governor is now talking about service starting next year.

ROCKFORD (WREX) -

A $223 million plan to restore Chicago-Rockford rail service was announced by state and local leaders Thursday.

The Amtrak route will use Metra's Milwaukee District West Line, which will then connect to the Union Pacific Railroad in Elgin. There will be one round trip everyday between Chicago's Union Station and Rockford. Work is scheduled to begin this summer and the rail service is slated to start sometime next year.
 
Some interesting developments on the Chicago-Rockford front. Details are sketchy but IL's governor is now talking about service starting next year.

ROCKFORD (WREX) -

A $223 million plan to restore Chicago-Rockford rail service was announced by state and local leaders Thursday.

The Amtrak route will use Metra's Milwaukee District West Line, which will then connect to the Union Pacific Railroad in Elgin. There will be one round trip everyday between Chicago's Union Station and Rockford. Work is scheduled to begin this summer and the rail service is slated to start sometime next year.
The Chicago-Rockford-Dubuque project seems like it has really been (and continues to be) a convoluted mess. I could be mistaken, but I think this is the 2nd or 3rd time that IL has switched the Chicago-Rockford portion of the route between the Metra/UP line and the CN/IC line.

Other news articles today give a bit more detail, as does this press release from the state.

Service Chicago-Rockford to begin in 2015 with one roundtrip per day serving a temporary stop in Rockford as the city works to develop a permanent station at the Main Street Station site (the former Amtrak Black Hawk station). In 2016 a second roundtrip will be added. Trains will also serve Belvidere, Elgin, and Huntley. No specific timeline for extending service to Freeport, Galena, and Dubuque.
 
Convoluted it may be :) but I'm a firm believer that "all's well that ends well" and the Metra-UP route is IMHO a definite improvement over the all-CN route. Not only will it use existing passenger-speed tracks Chicago-Elgin, use the existing Elgin station, and allow for Huntley and Belvidere stops as mentioned, it would allow the possibility of special stops for events at the Illinois Railway Museum adjoining the UP line.

I was always unclear why IDOT had ever given serious consideration (in contrast to listing it as an alternative in the study and then shooting it down) to the CN route. For the Quad Cities service, they analyzed an all-IAIS (nee RI) route alongside the BNSF-IAIS routing but IIRC never gave it serious weight in light of the obvious relative advantage of the BNSF routing.

I'm also a bit puzzled by the reference to $223 million in the linked press release when the other State press release gives a (IMHO more realistic) figure of $60 million. Of course, it also refers to serving DuPage county, where this line will pass through the northeast corner without stopping unless another now-Metra stop (say, Bensenville) is added. :wacko:
 
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