In the spirit of silly rules...

[FormerOBS]

If TVRM630's description is accurate, it seems to me that the crew is doing their job in a safe and well-thought-out manner, considering the equipment and available manpower. Sometimes it's best to leave well enough alone.

Tom

 

[neroden]

If TVRM630's description is accurate, it seems to me that the crew is doing their job in a safe and well-thought-out manner, considering the equipment and available manpower. Sometimes it's best to leave well enough alone.

Well, it seems to me that the crew is doing their job in an inefficient and poorly thought out manner. The equipment is no excuse: the state has enough funds to get decent equipment. The manpower is no excuse at all: people board trains with practically no supervision whatsoever worldwide. I'm not blaming the crew necessarily; it's possible that they've been stuck with inappropriate equipment and are dealing with that. I'm blaming the management for allowing this situation.
The bottom line is that the result is delayed trains and delayed passengers. And if you want to have a functional train system, you have to change your procedures to prevent that. "Leaving well enough alone" is *unacceptable*. Every crew member should be embarassed by the delays, even if they can't actually fix them without management support.

 

[TVRM610]

The bottom line is that the result is delayed trains and delayed passengers. And if you want to have a functional train system, you have to change your procedures to prevent that. "Leaving well enough alone" is *unacceptable*. Every crew member should be embarassed by the delays, even if they can't actually fix them without management support.

Tell me... does every door on the train have to be open for you to find it "acceptable" ? And why do you say the trains are being delayed by this?

 

[FormerOBS]

In this country, anybody who allows passengers to board and detrain "standard" vestibules at random at a low platform is inviting a lawsuit. What happens in Eastern Europe or some other part of the globe is hardly relevant. Some people are not always careful. They wear non-sensible shoes like high heels. They push and shove, whether going up or down the steps. They are in an unfamiliar environment, and don't think about the dangers of tripping or falling. They need to be supervised and directed. Not all people need this direction; but there are plenty who do. I have seen passengers board at unattended vestibules on tourist railroads and similar operations and I cringe every time I've seen it. I've also seen dangerous running on the platform and any number of other dangerous activities during boarding and detraining. Even if I didn't care about the passengers, I don't think I would want to be hauled into court to be called as a witness, and have to explain why I wasn't close enough to prevent the accident.

You say "the equipment is no excuse. The state has enough funds to get decent equipment." The amount of money the state has is irrelevant. The equipment is what it is, and it is what the crew must work with.

If those cars have high vestibules with steps, then one crew member needs to be positioned on the ground at each boarding location. If there are two crew members and one has duties in the baggage car, then that means only one door should be opened. The rear car is for through passengers going to the end point. The forward car is for "shorts" traveling to and from stations before the end point. So since only one door can be safely opened, the forward door makes sense.

Please find some other issue to argue about, and please don't apply for a safety-related Amtrak job.

Please just let it go.

Tom

 

[Eurotraveller]

In this country, anybody who allows passengers to board and detrain "standard" vestibules at random at a low platform is inviting a lawsuit. What happens in Eastern Europe or some other part of the globe is hardly relevant. Some people are not always careful. They wear non-sensible shoes like high heels. They push and shove, whether going up or down the steps. They are in an unfamiliar environment, and don't think about the dangers of tripping or falling. They need to be supervised and directed. Not all people need this direction; but there are plenty who do. I have seen passengers board at unattended vestibules on tourist railroads and similar operations and I cringe every time I've seen it. I've also seen dangerous running on the platform and any number of other dangerous activities during boarding and detraining. Even if I didn't care about the passengers, I don't think I would want to be hauled into court to be called as a witness, and have to explain why I wasn't close enough to prevent the accident.

You say "the equipment is no excuse. The state has enough funds to get decent equipment." The amount of money the state has is irrelevant. The equipment is what it is, and it is what the crew must work with.

If those cars have high vestibules with steps, then one crew member needs to be positioned on the ground at each boarding location. If there are two crew members and one has duties in the baggage car, then that means only one door should be opened. The rear car is for through passengers going to the end point. The forward car is for "shorts" traveling to and from stations before the end point. So since only one door can be safely opened, the forward door makes sense.

Please find some other issue to argue about, and please don't apply for a safety-related Amtrak job.

Please just let it go.

Tom

So the bottom line is that Americans are dumber than Europeans.

 

[FormerOBS]

No. I can't think of any reason to suggest that. But they may be more litigious.

 

[neroden]

The bottom line is that the result is delayed trains and delayed passengers. And if you want to have a functional train system, you have to change your procedures to prevent that. "Leaving well enough alone" is *unacceptable*. Every crew member should be embarassed by the delays, even if they can't actually fix them without management support.

Tell me... does every door on the train have to be open for you to find it "acceptable" ? And why do you say the trains are being delayed by this?

Dunno if it's happening on the Piedmont, but I've WATCHED trains on the Empire Service be delayed by 5-10 minutes at each station due to 50+ people filing out of a single door, followed by 50+ filing into a single door. (It's easy enough to time how much the delay is with a stopwatch.)
They do this even at Syracuse, which has high platforms. At least they open all the doors at Albany -- they don't even do so at New York, which makes boarding take a *very* long time. (Actually, the Lake Shore Limited definitely has enough assistant conductors and car attendants to attend more than two doors at Syracuse.... but last time I got off, they opened only two doors, and delayed the train by at least 5 minutes doing so.)

There's a *reason* trains are designed to have parallel boarding of multiple cars. You have to open enough doors to efficiently handle the number of people getting on and off at that station. (It's dependent on ridership.)

If it requires retrofitting the cars with automatic doors, if it requires redoing the platforms, if it requires hiring more staff (extra attendants for busy periods and for long trains), it needs to be done. The "funnel everyone through one or two doors" procedure simply does not scale up to large numbers of passengers.

The existing crew may be doing their best with the current situation. I will accept FormerOBS's claims in that regard. However, the current situation remains unacceptable, and management needs to change it. It probably evolved during the period when Amtrak was unpopular and had low ridership. It must be changed in order for Amtrak to handle high ridership.

A million people board the New York City Subway every day at unattended doors with wide gaps. It would be lunacy to suggest that they all enter through a single door.

Inappropriate boarding procedures will throttle the growth of Amtrak ridership. A state often spends several million dollars to cut five minutes off a train trip; if the same amount of time is lost because Amtrak cannot load the trains competently, then Amtrak is wasting the state's money. In fact, if Amtrak keeps doing so long enough, the states will eventually figure out that they need to hire another operator who knows how to operate trains.

This is a management issue, and a crucial one. If Amtrak wants ridership to grow, Amtrak has to open up enough doors to efficiently handle the passenger loads at each station. What resource allocation it takes to do that, I don't care, there are probably a dozen ways to do it, but it has to be done.

I wouldn't care except that I would like to see Amtrak grow. When Amtrak strangles its own ridership through management stupidity, I get upset. "Safety" is no excuse for sheer management incompetence, and I know at least as much about safety management than probably anyone on this board.

 

[trainrider]

A couple of weeks ago I boarded a late-running (nearly two hours) #5 at Galesburg. Rather than expedite boarding, the passengers were made to stand in line at the entrance to the platform (luckily it wasn't too cold), sleepers in one line, coaches in another. When the train arrived, a couple of minutes after it stopped the conductor made his leisurely way to the line and scanned all tickets (a violation of Amtrak rules). Only then, when the train had been in the station about 7 minutes, were passengers allowed to board. The dwell time at GBB was 13 minutes, adding to the lateness of the train. This is not safely, but sheer laziness on the part of the conductor, and is unacceptable.

 

[jis]

Most stations in France including those served by TGVs do not have level boarding. So that is yet another myth about wonderful level boarding platforms all over Europe.

 

[west point]

simple solutions.

1. have automatic doors installed on all cars

2. Have station tracks separate from main line so platforms do not interfere with some freight traffic

3, High level platforms at these stations. Long enough for any train on that route.

4. Closed access to platform so ticket can be scanned before train arrives. Then passengers can board any car

5. Adopt British system at all closed platforms where ticket is checked when departing train.

6. Issue platform tickets so rail fans can go on platform and then exit same as arriving passengers.

Well it will only take 40 - 60, years to implement and lots of money.

 

[FormerOBS]

Donations being accepted for the rebuilding of several hundred Amtrak rail cars so that all will have automatic doors.

Donations being accepted for the rebuilding of a whole lot of Amtrak stations, with addition of tracks, to separate freight from passenger tracks.

Donations being accepted for construction of high-level platforms at a whole lot of Amtrak stations.

Donations being accepted for station mods to create "closed access" at those stations.

Not sure why we have to make these mods in such a way that the needs of nonpaying railfans are accommodated, but that will add to the costs.

If you don't agree with the idea that there is potential legal liability with your system, please take it up with Amtrak's legal department.

I think I'll take myself out of this conversation. I'm off to find Daddy Warbucks to hit him up for donations.

Tom

 

[neroden]

Donations are coming from the North Carolina and New York state governments already.

I expect they would like to get better quality service for their money.

Amtrak has actually rebuilt cars to *remove* the automatic doors and make them manual, using Amtrak's own funds. Amtrak can certainly reverse the process out of its own funds.

 

[seat38a]

I give up on this post. Its turning into one of those not well thought out delusional rants again by one.

 

[VentureForth]

I was just perturbed that I got to the station 30 minutes before departure and the pews were empty because everyone lined up for the kindergarten walk. I was then perturbed that I tried boarding the wrong car, and even though I knew I wasn't going to sit back there and told the conductor as such, she still made me go back to the end of the other boarding line.

I'm not too concerned about efficiency at endpoints, but yes, at places like Savannah, a bit of signage, communication, and help from the station staff could reduce dwell times significantly.

 

[neroden]

I've always been impressed by Denver's signs explaining which car is at what point on the platform. Don't know why they can't do that elsewhere.

 

[MARC Rider]

I don't know how such behavior developed or why Amtrak tolerates it. This is not the kind of behavior the private railroads tolerated. And it *really slows down boarding*, which means it has to be abolished.

Well in the Case of the Piedmont there are only 2 crew (Conductor and Assistant Conductor) so they can only open up 2 doors if each door is going to be manned.
VentureForth... just be glad you got on at Charlotte and avoided the NCDOT gate police (AKA "Station Hosts) at some of the smaller stations.

I've ridden the Piedmont a few times and will agree the Conductors are very adamant about the boarding system... however they do have a system and they seem to follow it consistently.

So don't man the doors. Nobody mans the doors on the Surfliners and thousands of people successfully board them everyday without any issues.

You know, I recall that many years ago, when the Northeast Corridor trains stopped at stations with low platforms (i.e., tracks 15/16 and the lower tracks at Washington), all the doors of the Amfleet I cars would open. In fact, my memory seems to tell me that the trapdoors, as well as the doors opened automaticially. Now, when you come into a low platform, they only open one door for each conductor/assistant conductor, which means only 2 or 3 doors. When the trains stop at a station with high level platforms, all the doors open.

The surfliners/superliners (as well as, I suspect, European trains) all have a consistent boarding level at their platforms. Thus, they don't need to deal with the trap doors and such, which apparently now requires manual operation.

I don't know why they can't design automatic trapdoors, thus allowing all of the doors of the train to open at stations with low level platforms.

 

[TVRM610]

Marc Rider - I don't know of any rail cars that have automatic trap doors. If you had fixed stairs (unlike Amfleets) it seems possible to design an automatic trap, but you would need multiple sensors so that the doors do not catch anyone that would possibly be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. It seems like a very complex set up.

Now as I mentioned earlier... some (maybe all?) New Jersey Transit Cars have fixed steps and automatic doors that cover the steps. The Conductors can manually set the traps for either low level, or high level platforms and then open all the doors automatically at the stop.

 

[MattW]

Automatic traps are easy, if they detect any weight, they pivot down toward the platform, so any goof still on top of them gets dumped off the train and is no longer the conductor's problem!

 

[MikefromCrete]

Automatic traps are easy, if they detect any weight, they pivot down toward the platform, so any goof still on top of them gets dumped off the train and is no longer the conductor's problem!

To the delight of a legion of personal injury lawyers.

 

[HAL]

I don't know how such behavior developed or why Amtrak tolerates it. This is not the kind of behavior the private railroads tolerated. And it *really slows down boarding*, which means it has to be abolished.

Well in the Case of the Piedmont there are only 2 crew (Conductor and Assistant Conductor) so they can only open up 2 doors if each door is going to be manned.
VentureForth... just be glad you got on at Charlotte and avoided the NCDOT gate police (AKA "Station Hosts) at some of the smaller stations.

I've ridden the Piedmont a few times and will agree the Conductors are very adamant about the boarding system... however they do have a system and they seem to follow it consistently.

So don't man the doors. Nobody mans the doors on the Surfliners and thousands of people successfully board them everyday without any issues.

You know, I recall that many years ago, when the Northeast Corridor trains stopped at stations with low platforms (i.e., tracks 15/16 and the lower tracks at Washington), all the doors of the Amfleet I cars would open. In fact, my memory seems to tell me that the trapdoors, as well as the doors opened automaticially. Now, when you come into a low platform, they only open one door for each conductor/assistant conductor, which means only 2 or 3 doors. When the trains stop at a station with high level platforms, all the doors open.

The surfliners/superliners (as well as, I suspect, European trains) all have a consistent boarding level at their platforms. Thus, they don't need to deal with the trap doors and such, which apparently now requires manual operation.

I don't know why they can't design automatic trapdoors, thus allowing all of the doors of the train to open at stations with low level platforms.

No Amfleets or other cars on the Northeast Corridor trains ever had trapdoors that opened automatically. Your memory is wrong.

 

[jis]

No Amfleets or other cars on the Northeast Corridor trains ever had trapdoors that opened automatically. Your memory is wrong.

I concur. The closest thing to such are NJTransit full length doors, but even there the Conductor has to prepare the door to be either in high platform mode or low platform mode by placing the trap in proper position. Once that is done all doors can be operated remotely. In fact this is done everyday by NJT crew on NJT trains.
San Francisco Muni LRTs I believe are able to position the steps to high platform or low platform mode remotely from the operator's position. But that would be difficult to manage in a long train.

On the matter of requiring conductor at every open door. NJT for example operates with remotely operated doors at low platform stations with huge gap between the platform and the first step. There is a conductor per about four doors, and things work just fine. So even Americans can manage under such trying conditions if given a chance.

 

[amamba]

They wear non-sensible shoes like high heels.

High heels can be very sensible - depends on the specific shoe. And let's not forget that the cultural norms that often dictate fashion choices for women.

I am sure there are plenty of other gender-neutral non-sensible shoes that folks wear on trains.

 

[Paulus]

They wear non-sensible shoes like high heels.

High heels can be very sensible - depends on the specific shoe. And let's not forget that the cultural norms that often dictate fashion choices for women.
I am sure there are plenty of other gender-neutral non-sensible shoes that folks wear on trains.

Sandals, I hear, are both common and a bad idea aboard trains.

 

[FormerOBS]

I had planned to stay away from this discussion, but the shoe issue reminded me that there was a special promotion many years ago when Universal Studios opened their theme park in Florida. Actors portrayed various Universal characters at Auto Train stations, and they rode the train in costume and in character. There were human characters like Marilyn Monroe and Abbott & Costello; but there were also cartoon characters like Andy Panda and Woody Woodpecker, both of whom wore enormous fiberglass heads and enormous shoes. They had to go up the stairs of the Heritage cars backwards because their artificial feet were too long.

I should not have singled out high heels because they are certainly not the worst or only footwear problem. Open-toed shoes always made us worry, and stockings or bare feet are potential injuries waiting to happen.

Tom

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

They wear non-sensible shoes like high heels.

High heels can be very sensible - depends on the specific shoe. And let's not forget that the cultural norms that often dictate fashion choices for women.
I am sure there are plenty of other gender-neutral non-sensible shoes that folks wear on trains.

Sandals, I hear, are both common and a bad idea aboard trains.

Sometimes I will wear my Minnetonka Hard Sole Low Boots (a hybrid between a Moccasin and Boot) on board because they are comfortable and because they have a hard sole, they are safe. As I passed through a Heritage Diner one time, a Server about had Kittens wanting to cuss me out about not wearing proper shoes when the Lead jumped in and told her they ARE proper shoes and she wanted to know where to get a pair