Jacksonville Terminal

[Amtrak Alan]

Does anyone have photos, etc of Jacksonville FL terminal in its peak? Also, what are the chances of the Amtrak station moving back down there?

 

[jis]

Does anyone have photos, etc of Jacksonville FL terminal in its peak? Also, what are the chances of the Amtrak station moving back down there?

Answer to the second question is: almost zero. It involves a convoluted backup move to get to/from that station to the route that is followed by the Silver Service trains.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

I would check out This Site its run by the Jacksonville Terminal Railroad Museum and has a photo gallery.

 

[TampAGS]

Does anyone have photos, etc of Jacksonville FL terminal in its peak? Also, what are the chances of the Amtrak station moving back down there?

Answer to the second question is: almost zero. It involves a convoluted backup move to get to/from that station to the route that is followed by the Silver Service trains.

Actually, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority's current plans are to do just that. They plan to restore the Jacksonville Terminal to its original purpose: a transportation hub. Services based at the facility will include the city's skyway and buses as well as Greyhound and Amtrak. Most of these will be based out of adjacent buildings, but the new Amtrak station will occupy much of the original Terminal building.

 

A picure of the planned project is here: http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Graphics/RTS/J...jrtc_image.aspx

A pdf presentation of the JTA's plans is here: http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Graphics/RTS/J...NTATION3508.pdf

 

 

[jis]

Actually, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority's current plans are to do just that. They plan to restore the Jacksonville Terminal to its original purpose: a transportation hub. Services based at the facility will include the city's skyway and buses as well as Greyhound and Amtrak. Most of these will be based out of adjacent buildings, but the new Amtrak station will occupy much of the original Terminal building. 

A picure of the planned project is here: http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Graphics/RTS/J...jrtc_image.aspx

A pdf presentation of the JTA's plans is here: http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Graphics/RTS/J...NTATION3508.pdf

 

I know. But they are dreaming. I just don't see either Amtrak or CSX agreeing to it, unless of course they can find the funds to connect the south end of the proposed station to the CSX main towards Orlando. The fact that they don't even mention that as a consideration suggests to me that at present they are just dreaming as far as Amtrak is concerned.

The other possibility is that they will build the station and only the Amtrak train that eventually runs down the FEC will use it, and the current station will continue to be used by the those that run down CSX towards Orlando. THe situation then would be analogous to the way things are in Richmond VA, where only trains going to Newport News use the downtown Main Street station and all trains use the Staples Mill station which is on the main RF&P Line.

 

[battalion51]

One would think since this is part of an overall strategy to move trains back to JUS that they would be looking at what it takes to make this happen. IIRC ACL trains used this station back in the day, and they managed to do it then...

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I would check out This Site its run by the Jacksonville Terminal Railroad Museum and has a photo gallery.

I certainly recommend the site referred to here.

If you have any interest in the pre-Amtrak passenger equipment in Florida you should enjoy the info.

It especially treats the streamlined era. If you care about any ot these trains, you should check out this site: that would be the East Coast Champion, West Coast Champion,Silver Meteor, Henry M. Flagler (later Dixie Flagler, then Dixieland), South Wind, City of Miami, Silver Star, Florida Special,New Royal Palm and others.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I traveled through Jacksonville in 1973 on Amtrak's Vacationer and had traveled through on the SCL in mid to late 60s. It was a time consuming back up move no matter whether the trains used the A line or the S line. The local planners here in Jacksonville who talk about moving Amtrak back to Union Terminal have not shown any plans for rerouting the rail lines to avoid a back up move which is probably because most planners are not familiar with the routing of the rail lines and likely have never ridden a train out of the Terminal. The former Union Terminal is now fairly active as the Prime Osborn Convention Center would not leave much room for Amtrak or the proposed Commuter trains that are "talked about" every now and then.

 

[jis]

One would think since this is part of an overall strategy to move trains back to JUS that they would be looking at what it takes to make this happen. IIRC ACL trains used this station back in the day, and they managed to do it then...

After having worked with several of the so called planners I am unfortunately not very impressed by their knowledge of the context within which they do the planning. So I do not trust that they have looked into the issue until they explicitly say they have. And in this case there is not even a mention of the issue anywhere.

Take out a track map around JAX of current in service and past out of service at present, tracks and convince yourself how they did it. It was always a backup move to/from the S and the A line going south, at least in the recent past (like past 40 or 50 years). What is worse now is that the backup will have to be across the neck of a very busy yard and then part way up the yard. An analogous situation in Richmond VA would be if one had to back up through half of Acca Yard to get to Richmond station, and then departing go through the yard again.

Of course anything can be done with enough money. For example an abandoned FEC right of way that connects St. Augustine on the FEC to Palatka on CSX could perhaps be re-commissioned if it is still around unencroached thus allowing trains running through JAX Union Station over FEC to St. Augustine and then swing back over to the CSX A line joining it at Palatka. I just don't see any evidence that they realize the situation enough to even start thinking about what needs to be done

 

[Amtrak Alan]

Do you have a map that show what you mean by the backup move?

Thanks

One would think since this is part of an overall strategy to move trains back to JUS that they would be looking at what it takes to make this happen. IIRC ACL trains used this station back in the day, and they managed to do it then...

After having worked with several of the so called planners I am unfortunately not very impressed by their knowledge of the context within which they do the planning. So I do not trust that they have looked into the issue until they explicitly say they have. And in this case there is not even a mention of the issue anywhere.

Take out a track map around JAX of current in service and past out of service at present, tracks and convince yourself how they did it. It was always a backup move to/from the S and the A line going south, at least in the recent past (like past 40 or 50 years). What is worse now is that the backup will have to be across the neck of a very busy yard and then part way up the yard. An analogous situation in Richmond VA would be if one had to back up through half of Acca Yard to get to Richmond station, and then departing go through the yard again.

Of course anything can be done with enough money. For example an abandoned FEC right of way that connects St. Augustine on the FEC to Palatka on CSX could perhaps be re-commissioned if it is still around unencroached thus allowing trains running through JAX Union Station over FEC to St. Augustine and then swing back over to the CSX A line joining it at Palatka. I just don't see any evidence that they realize the situation enough to even start thinking about what needs to be done

 

[jis]

Do you have a map that show what you mean by the backup move? Thanks

I do, but unfortunately only on paper. I will look around and see if I can find one on the internet.

To describe it briefly, basically the line from Jasup comes in from the north through the current JAX Amtrak station and then passes by the Union Station location and then changes company from CSX to FEC and crosses the river and goes onto St. Augustine and south.

Both the A line and the S line take off to the west at right angle from this north - south line about a third of the way towards the current Amtrak station from Union Station site. So any train going south after making a stop at Union Station would have to back up to a point north of the junction and then proceed onto the S or A lines. Similarly any train coming in from the south would have to pull north of the junction and then back down to Union Station to make the stop.

Hope that gives you some idea of the layout.

 

[jis]

Here you go. See this Google Map. It should be quite self explanatory.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

FWIW I know this about the old JAX terminal.

I know that in the early 50's an article in TRAINS said that domes had been considered for the Chicago to Miami route but had to be dropped because of clearances in JAX.

Yet by the end of the 50's domes were on the Chicago to Miami trains. And at one time a Richmond to Miami dome was put on the winter time Florida Special, an ACL train from New York to Miami.

All of these trains approached from the north on ACL and left south on FEC.

Obviously, something happened between the early 50's and the late 50's as to the stations ability to handle domes.

FWIW

 

[Murjax]

Of course anything can be done with enough money. For example an abandoned FEC right of way that connects St. Augustine on the FEC to Palatka on CSX could perhaps be re-commissioned if it is still around unencroached thus allowing trains running through JAX Union Station over FEC to St. Augustine and then swing back over to the CSX A line joining it at Palatka. I just don't see any evidence that they realize the situation enough to even start thinking about what needs to be done

Most of that right of way still exists and a small portion of the branch is still in use. It extends about 4 miles from Moultrie Junction in downtown St. Augustine to a small industry out near I-95. The track ends there, but the right of way continues all the way to East Palatka (a little village on the east side of the St. Johns River) undisturbed. It's only been encroached in a few spots, but since everything along that right of way is farmland re-commissioning it wouldn't be much of a problem. You would have to build a bridge over the St. Johns River though and then dig your way through town to connect with the CSX A Line. A better idea would be to construct a new line between Daytona and DeLand. There is virtually nothing in the way between those two towns that would make it much of an expensive prospect, plus using the FEC between Jacksonville and Daytona would solve the problem of serving two popular destinations.

This plan would allow the use of the old Union Terminal by both Amtraks that currently stop at Jacksonville. The only drawback would be skipping Paltaka, although Palatka isn't that big and it's only a 30 minute drive from St. Augustine so I can't imagine that being much of a loss.

 

[jis]

Most of that right of way still exists and a small portion of the branch is still in use. It extends about 4 miles from Moultrie Junction in downtown St. Augustine to a small industry out near I-95. The track ends there, but the right of way continues all the way to East Palatka (a little village on the east side of the St. Johns River) undisturbed. It's only been encroached in a few spots, but since everything along that right of way is farmland re-commissioning it wouldn't be much of a problem. You would have to build a bridge over the St. Johns River though and then dig your way through town to connect with the CSX A Line. A better idea would be to construct a new line between Daytona and DeLand. There is virtually nothing in the way between those two towns that would make it much of an expensive prospect, plus using the FEC between Jacksonville and Daytona would solve the problem of serving two popular destinations.

Sounds like an interesting idea. Have you had a chance to bring this up with any of the Florida rail advocacy groups, or perhaps even to the attention of teh Jacksonville planners?

This plan would allow the use of the old Union Terminal by both Amtraks that currently stop at Jacksonville. The only drawback would be skipping Paltaka, although Palatka isn't that big and it's only a 30 minute drive from St. Augustine so I can't imagine that being much of a loss.

Considering that most likely the reason that there is a stop in Palatka is to serve St. Augustine, I see your point.

 

[jphjaxfl]

FWIW I know this about the old JAX terminal.
I know that in the early 50's an article in TRAINS said that domes had been considered for the Chicago to Miami route but had to be dropped because of clearances in JAX.

Yet by the end of the 50's domes were on the Chicago to Miami trains. And at one time a Richmond to Miami dome was put on the winter time Florida Special, an ACL train from New York to Miami.

All of these trains approached from the north on ACL and left south on FEC.

Obviously, something happened between the early 50's and the late 50's as to the stations ability to handle domes.

FWIW

I don't think the Florida Special actually stopped at Jacksonville Union Terminal. I think it made an operating stop at Baldwin, FL which is about 18 miles west of downtown Jacksonville. Both ACL and SAL had lines running through Baldwin which by bypassed Jacksonville. The City of Miami and Southwind both carried domes and operated through JAX Union Terminal. Most of the times they were Northern Pacific Dome Sleepers with the Dome area known as the "lounge in the sky". IC actually painted the City of Miami domes in their colors for the winter months when they operated from Chicago to Miami. The Southwind Domes stayed in NP colors. If I remember correctly the CM/SW Domes usually operated towards the rear of the train so it might have had something to do with clearance at JAX Union Terminal.

 

[Murjax]

Sounds like an interesting idea. Have you had a chance to bring this up with any of the Florida rail advocacy groups, or perhaps even to the attention of teh Jacksonville planners?

I haven't thought of bringing the idea to them. I probably should though since this might be the cheapest of all the ideas currently floating around.

Considering that most likely the reason that there is a stop in Palatka is to serve St. Augustine, I see your point.

Actually, since St. Augustine is considered a suburb of Jacksonville, when most people visit St. Augustine they use Jacksonville station. People don't think of Palatka. That town is in such a remote location it's not even thought of as an option, even though it's less than half the drive time than from Jacksonville.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

FWIW I know this about the old JAX terminal.
I know that in the early 50's an article in TRAINS said that domes had been considered for the Chicago to Miami route but had to be dropped because of clearances in JAX.

Yet by the end of the 50's domes were on the Chicago to Miami trains. And at one time a Richmond to Miami dome was put on the winter time Florida Special, an ACL train from New York to Miami.

All of these trains approached from the north on ACL and left south on FEC.

Obviously, something happened between the early 50's and the late 50's as to the stations ability to handle domes.

FWIW

I don't think the Florida Special actually stopped at Jacksonville Union Terminal. I think it made an operating stop at Baldwin, FL which is about 18 miles west of downtown Jacksonville. Both ACL and SAL had lines running through Baldwin which by bypassed Jacksonville. The City of Miami and Southwind both carried domes and operated through JAX Union Terminal. Most of the times they were Northern Pacific Dome Sleepers with the Dome area known as the "lounge in the sky". IC actually painted the City of Miami domes in their colors for the winter months when they operated from Chicago to Miami. The Southwind Domes stayed in NP colors. If I remember correctly the CM/SW Domes usually operated towards the rear of the train so it might have had something to do with clearance at JAX Union Terminal.

Iphiaxfl,

you are right about the Florida Special skipping JAX Union terminal. At least in the spot checking I did.

I did know that other trains had done it during the years. I think the Silver Star did it during some timetable periods pre-Amtrak.And I think the heavyweight Southern Railroad train before the New Royal Palm skipped JAX also.

Of course none of that had anything to do with dome cars.

Guess that leaves it still a mystery how the South Wind and City of Miami were able to get by with them.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Unfortunately, there is also a rail museum at the station in Palatka, including a caboose on stationary display outside, as of the last time we were there. Kind of kick in the teeth for those folks to bypass it. And unless you could perhaps piggyback onto the U.S. 92 ROW, there has been a lot of development in that DAB-Deland corridor, at least south of Deland - U.S. 17-92 from Sanford through Deland is pretty well packed at this point, with a lot of development west/north of I-4 (I-4 runs E-W starting at Tampa, then runs N-S through the Orlando corridor, then turns East again a ways north of Sanford. In Orlando, we confuse tourists by telling them to get on I-4 West and go South. Or vice-versa.) Seems like it would be a shorter trackwork to do something at JAX. With the current station, Sunset typically either wyed and backed into the current Jax station, or backed out and wyed upon departing it.

 

[Murjax]

Unfortunately, there is also a rail museum at the station in Palatka, including a caboose on stationary display outside, as of the last time we were there. Kind of kick in the teeth for those folks to bypass it. And unless you could perhaps piggyback onto the U.S. 92 ROW, there has been a lot of development in that DAB-Deland corridor, at least south of Deland - U.S. 17-92 from Sanford through Deland is pretty well packed at this point, with a lot of development west/north of I-4 (I-4 runs E-W starting at Tampa, then runs N-S through the Orlando corridor, then turns East again a ways north of Sanford. In Orlando, we confuse tourists by telling them to get on I-4 West and go South. Or vice-versa.) Seems like it would be a shorter trackwork to do something at JAX. With the current station, Sunset typically either wyed and backed into the current Jax station, or backed out and wyed upon departing it.

Downtown Jacksonville is a very dense area. The only way you would be able to construct a line allowing you to jump back on the CSX main line without reversing would require a tunnel. Now I don't know how the Deland-Daytona area is developing because I'm not down there much, but by looking at Google Earth, I see there's a huge plot of land north of US-92 (which is probably swamp) that would be a perfect spot to build a FEC-CSX connector. I agree, Palatka does have a nice museum, but Jacksonville actually has a lot more history and the old Union Terminal would be much more suitable for operations than today's little station.

 

[TampAGS]

Now I don't know how the Deland-Daytona area is developing because I'm not down there much, but by looking at Google Earth, I see there's a huge plot of land north of US-92 (which is probably swamp) that would be a perfect spot to build a FEC-CSX connector. I agree, Palatka does have a nice museum, but Jacksonville actually has a lot more history and the old Union Terminal would be much more suitable for operations than today's little station.

A line cutting through from DeLand over to Daytona would be sublime in my book. It would certainly be a more appealing option than the Thruway connecting service currently offered from DeLand Station (which is actually nothing more than a taxi-cab).

 

That area of Volusia County south of State Road 40 and north of US-92 is largely undeveloped cyprus and scrub pine forests. A possible route would involve using the existing four-mile spur branching off the CSX A-line near the current Amtrak station (f.k.a. DeLand Junction), or building a new branch within a few miles north before hitting Deleon Springs. This track would continue northeast along the north side of US-92 to Daytona. Punching through to the FEC main by continuing east across I-95 could be cost-prohibitive and unpopular, so the line could instead turn north once reaching the interstate. A station could potentially be located near I-95 and US-92 (International Speedway Blvd), along Daytona's western edge.

 

From there, the track would follow north alongside the interstate up until the junction of I-95 and US-1. At this point, where the FEC main line crosses from the opposite side of the interstate, the tracks could merge and the connection between CSX and FEC would be complete.

 

Of course, if the day ever comes where Amtrak runs trains along the entire FEC main, it may be deemed of importance that any potential Daytona Station be located along that line. If that is seen as a real possibility, an alternate route for the CSX connector could turn off the A-line somewhere between Deleon Springs and Barberville and follow an eastern route along the north side of Highway 40. Using this route, there may be potential in making a stop for Ormond Beach either near the junction of 40 and I-95 (where the line would again turn north towards following I-95), or northwest of town at the junction with the FEC main line(allowing stops for both main line trains and those on the CSX connector).

 

And for the record, other Florida communities that are home to railroad museums or prominent rail exhibits include Parrish, Winter Garden, Ft. Myers, Green Cove Springs, Lake Wales, Dundee, Live Oak, and Zephyrhills. None of these has had passenger train service in decades.

 

[VentureForth]

I think that my preference would be to connect Palatka to East Palatka, rebuild the ROW between EP and StA and run all existing trains through Jax Terminal and St Augustine. Keep Daytona transfer at Deltona. It would still serve folks from the West to get to Daytona, as, with TampAGS, I don't think it's practical to build a new ROW between Deltona and Daytona. People aren't going to flock to a train to get to Daytona from Orlando, but if they ever do the FEC corridor, it'd be worth a bit of a bus ride to get to all points on the coast.

 

[jis]

Seems like it would be a shorter trackwork to do something at JAX.

Interesting that you are worried about development around Daytona and you seem to think that there is even a spec of space to put a new ROW through the middle of Jacksonville.

Unfortunately the geography conspires against it. Once you get across the St. john River you also have the additional problem of building a new bridge across that river to get back to the A Line. If you want to avoid doing so you have to stay on the same bank of the St. john River as the A Line, which means you will have to make a phenomenally sharp turn to the right immediately after departing Jacksonville Union Terminal, and then run smack dab into densely developed area to plow through to get back to the A-Line.

With the current station, Sunset typically either wyed and backed into the current Jax station, or backed out and wyed upon departing it.

The Sunset Y-ing problem can theoretically be solved with a little bit of cooperation from CSX, if CSX deemd that important enough. The Sunset could run north from the S-Line branching off at Duval Connection, then run through CSX's Pritchard Yard, across NS at Duval and then join the A-Line north of Amtrak's JAX station at Dinsmore Connection, thus avoiding the need to Y.

BTW, just curious, in case you know the answer..... when the Sunset used to run did it do the backup all the way from Seminole Connection/Beaver St.? Or did it take the CSX line north from Carnegie to Grand Crossing and then just back up the short distance from Moncrief? Thanks.

 

[battalion51]

The Sunset would do the reverse move just south of the station at Grand Junction (IIRC). The inbound crew would always be the one who did the wyeing (unless they were running short on time).

 

[jis]

The Sunset would do the reverse move just south of the station at Grand Junction (IIRC). The inbound crew would always be the one who did the wyeing (unless they were running short on time).

Thanks Battalion.