Long distance business class - why certain routes and not others?

[rs9]

As far as I can tell, the three long distance routes with business class are the Lake Shore Limited, Palmetto and Coast Starlight.

The first two makes sense: LSL is a Viewliner train and needs a cafe car (split with business) for coach passengers who can't use the dining car, and there's no sightseer lounge with the cafe on the lower level. As a day train, the Palmetto has no dining car, so the cafe/business car has a role to play (also a Viewliner train).

So my questions are:

- Why does the Coast Starlight have a Superliner coach car designated as a business car? Why this route and not others?
- Does Amtrak offer business class on the LSL and Palmetto solely because it has to, or partially/fully because there is demand on the routes?
- Can coach customers on the Viewliner-based Cardinal access the dining car? That train no longer runs the split cafe/business class car. Am I missing something?

 

[neroden]

Originally they didn't have business class on any of the long-distance trains. It was pointed out by advocates that it would be attractive and profitable (which it is!), and it was added to the trains (in this order: Palmetto, LSL, Coast Starlight) but there seems to be little internal understanding of its value at Amtrak, because it's been an uphilll push for each train it got added to.

 

[Willbridge]

As far as I can tell, the three long distance routes with business class are the Lake Shore Limited, Palmetto and Coast Starlight.

The first two makes sense: LSL is a Viewliner train and needs a cafe car (split with business) for coach passengers who can't use the dining car, and there's no sightseer lounge with the cafe on the lower level. As a day train, the Palmetto has no dining car, so the cafe/business car has a role to play (also a Viewliner train).

So my questions are:

- Why does the Coast Starlight have a Superliner coach car designated as a business car? Why this route and not others?
- Does Amtrak offer business class on the LSL and Palmetto solely because it has to, or partially/fully because there is demand on the routes?
- Can coach customers on the Viewliner-based Cardinal access the dining car? That train no longer runs the split cafe/business class car. Am I missing something?

I can't speak for the other routes, but the Coast Starlight is part of business travel corridors that have other trains on them with Business Class. From the customer point of view, it would seem odd not to have it, as people buying round trips may ride EUG<>SEA or LAX<>SBA on a corridor train one way and on the CS the other way. The CS Business Class service was added after the corridor trains offered it.

I did enjoy BC on the Cardinal ALX<>CHI, but most people were using it for day travel.

 

[TheCrescent]

The Crescent had business class. I never went in business class, from what I could tell, it was simply another regular Amfleet II coach, placed after the sleeping cars (instead of next to the other coaches). Perhaps there would be fewer people walking through it so it would be quieter, but what's the point in paying more for a seat in coach that's simply called "business class" even though it's otherwise the exact same coach seat?

 

[Sidney]

The Crescent had business class. I never went in business class, from what I could tell, it was simply another regular Amfleet II coach, placed after the sleeping cars (instead of next to the other coaches). Perhaps there would be fewer people walking through it so it would be quieter, but what's the point in paying more for a seat in coach that's simply called "business class" even though it's otherwise the exact same coach seat?

2 to 1 seating,a free alcoholic drink,unlimited coffee juice soda and water and maybe a snack pack should be the norm for BC. The Surfliner comes the closest,but it's still a regular car. When I take the Lake Shore from Chicago the five single seats is the main draw for me.

 

[jis]

As far as I can tell, the three long distance routes with business class are the Lake Shore Limited, Palmetto and Coast Starlight.

The first two makes sense: LSL is a Viewliner train and needs a cafe car (split with business) for coach passengers who can't use the dining car, and there's no sightseer lounge with the cafe on the lower level. As a day train, the Palmetto has no dining car, so the cafe/business car has a role to play (also a Viewliner train).

Palmetto is very different from the LSL as far as BC goes. Palmetto has had a Capstone full BC from the NEC pool for a long time. The LSL split cafe/BC is a much more cent phenomenon. It also has had a full length Cafe car from the NEC pool. And incidentally the only Viewliner car in the Palmetto consist is the Baggage Car.

So my questions are:

- Why does the Coast Starlight have a Superliner coach car designated as a business car? Why this route and not others?

Left coasters can answer that better than me.

- Does Amtrak offer business class on the LSL and Palmetto solely because it has to, or partially/fully because there is demand on the routes?

Palmetto is a long distance train because of the odd 750 mile rule. In practice it really is a daytime corridor train which uses NEC corridor equipment other than a few Amfleet II Coaches, like is done also on the Pennsylvanian, Adirondack and Maple Leaf (non-Covid times for the last two). Palmetto is a very popular train as part of the portfolio of Atlantic Coast Service. It has a full BC car because it does manage to sell out on some segments in normal times.

On the LSL apparently the half BC has proved to be popular.

Amtrak does not have to do anything regarding BC. They provide BC as equipment availability allows in order to enhance revenue from routes where they sell.

- Can coach customers on the Viewliner-based Cardinal access the dining car? That train no longer runs the split cafe/business class car. Am I missing something?

Cardinal does not have a Dining Car. It has an Amfleet II Lounge/Cafe which does double duty as table car for Sleeper people at one end of it. Coach passengers have access to it as a Cafe car at the other end. It has been that way for a long time.

 

[lordsigma]

One benefit on the Coast Starlight of course is the ability to access the dining car for a fee which isn’t an option for coach - but of course that privilege is limited to that particular service. Though perhaps that is a preview of things to come for other Superliner trains.

 

[IndyLions]

1. The Crescent had business class. I never went in business class, from what I could tell, it was simply another regular Amfleet II coach, placed after the sleeping cars (instead of next to the other coaches). Perhaps there would be fewer people walking through it so it would be quieter, but what's the point in paying more for a seat in coach that's simply called "business class" even though it's otherwise the exact same coach seat?

The problem I have with your statement is that it seems to indicate that without improved seating - they shouldn’t offer BC at all.

As short as Amtrak currently is on equipment, and as long as it takes to get equipment delivered even after it’s ordered – that alone would prevent any added BC on LD routes for 5 to 10 years.

I say package a list of amenities and offer the service, and if people don’t bite - then at least you tried.

Here is a list of amenities they should at least attempt in my opinion:

• Quiet Car designation
• Metropolitan Lounge Access
• Priority Cafe Food access (at certain times)
• Priority Access to the Dining Car (after sleeper passengers)
• Guaranteed open setting (first come, first served - no pre-assigned seating at the whim of Amtrak OBS)

I would revoke that last bullet if they modernized and gave us the opportunity to pick our seat at the time we buy our ticket. But that means waiting until Amtrak gets their IT act together, which will probably take longer than 5-10 years.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

BC should have dining car access, perhaps paid for when the ticket is purchased to avoid having the dining car crew have to deal with cash or credit cards and so they have a rough count of how many meals to serve.

Being able to reserve a seat should not be rocket science. Practically every other major passenger railway in the world manages to do it.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The Crescent had business class. I never went in business class, from what I could tell, it was simply another regular Amfleet II coach, placed after the sleeping cars (instead of next to the other coaches). Perhaps there would be fewer people walking through it so it would be quieter, but what's the point in paying more for a seat in coach that's simply called "business class" even though it's otherwise the exact same coach seat?

The appeal for me was less foot traffic (only the sleeping car passengers going back and forth from diner / cafe) and pretty much a guarantee to get 2 seats together.

 

[PVD]

As long as full BC cars are on NER trains, and all Acela and its successor coach seats are sold as BC it is not practical on the corridor for space reasons. Pricing on the Empire Service BC originating/terminating at NYP is often not high enough above coach to cost justify access to the lounge at Moynihan.

 

[TheCrescent]

The problem I have with your statement is that it seems to indicate that without improved seating - they shouldn’t offer BC at all.

As short as Amtrak currently is on equipment, and as long as it takes to get equipment delivered even after it’s ordered – that alone would prevent any added BC on LD routes for 5 to 10 years.

I say package a list of amenities and offer the service, and if people don’t bite - then at least you tried.

Here is a list of amenities they should at least attempt in my opinion:

• Quiet Car designation
• Metropolitan Lounge Access
• Priority Cafe Food access (at certain times)
• Priority Access to the Dining Car (after sleeper passengers)
• Guaranteed open setting (first come, first served - no pre-assigned seating at the whim of Amtrak OBS)

I would revoke that last bullet if they modernized and gave us the opportunity to pick our seat at the time we buy our ticket. But that means waiting until Amtrak gets their IT act together, which will probably take longer than 5-10 years.

My point is that Amtrak should make business class into a product that’s worth buying. And be consistent about it.

 

[rs9]

As long as full BC cars are on NER trains, and all Acela and its successor coach seats are sold as BC it is not practical on the corridor for space reasons. Pricing on the Empire Service BC originating/terminating at NYP is often not high enough above coach to cost justify access to the lounge at Moynihan.

On the flip side is revenue management. If that train must have a cafe car, you could run a cafe car with no revenue seating or 18 revenue seats with a premium, however small, beyond coach.

 

[MARC Rider]

• Guaranteed open setting (first come, first served - no pre-assigned seating at the whim of Amtrak OBS)

What about family groups or couples who board at an intermediate station or who aren't as good at pushing their way to the front of the line as solo travelers are when the train boards at the originating station?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

My point is that Amtrak should make business class into a product that’s worth buying. And be consistent about it.

I have always argued for a consistent business class product on amtrak but others have pointed out that "Business Class" is usually marketed for local business travelers on corridors so not having consistency across the country really doesn't matter.

My biggest complaint is still Acela "Business Class" which is really just coach since you don't get any amenities other than the privilege of saying you rode the Acela.

 

[MARC Rider]

I have always argued for a consistent business class product on amtrak but others have pointed out that "Business Class" is usually marketed for local business travelers on corridors so not having consistency across the country really doesn't matter.

My biggest complaint is still Acela "Business Class" which is really just coach since you don't get any amenities other than the privilege of saying you rode the Acela.

The main thing they need to do for business class is make 2-1 seating universal. They also need full length 2-1 business class cars so that the train isn't limited to the 18 seats of a club-coach.

Right now, business class hard product is clearly a superior to coach on a given train, except on the Palmetto, the Coast Starlight, and the Pennsylvanian.

As far as the Acela, I think I agree that they shouldn't call the basic product "business class." It might make it harder for business travelers to get reimbursed, as most corporate travel policies only reimburse for coach class. I'm not sure whether this marketing ploy has had any value. Amtrak successfully marketed the Metroliners for decades without calling the basic service "business class."

 

[jis]

As far as the Acela, I think I agree that they shouldn't call the basic product "business class." It might make it harder for business travelers to get reimbursed, as most corporate travel policies only reimburse for coach class. I'm not sure whether this marketing ploy has had any value. Amtrak successfully marketed the Metroliners for decades without calling the basic service "business class."

For Acela they could just designate the two classes as Acela Coach and Acela First, instead of what they have now.

On Metroliners briefly they had Metro Coach and Metro Club as I seem to recall. They certainly required a surcharge for travel by Coach on Metroliner over and above the base Coach charge. But that was very much in line with the practice of charging surcharge for travel by special "higher level" trains.

 

[Sidney]

The main thing they need to do for business class is make 2-1 seating universal. They also need full length 2-1 business class cars so that the train isn't limited to the 18 seats of a club-coach.

Right now, business class hard product is clearly a superior to coach on a given train, except on the Palmetto, the Coast Starlight, and the Pennsylvanian.

As far as the Acela, I think I agree that they shouldn't call the basic product "business class." It might make it harder for business travelers to get reimbursed, as most corporate travel policies only reimburse for coach class. I'm not sure whether this marketing ploy has had any value. Amtrak successfully marketed the Metroliners for decades without calling the basic service "business class."

Agree. 2 to 1 seating assures you won't have to sit with a stranger if you are among the first to grab them. When I am in Chicago and heading out on the Lake Shore I am guaranteed a single seat just by being in the Metropolitan Lounge and are the first to board.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

I really don't mind a regular Amfleet II coach car being designated as BC. Because the AM2s have more legroom than AM1s.

 

[IndyLions]

My point is that Amtrak should make business class into a product that’s worth buying. And be consistent about it.

Fair enough. But the words you wrote were:

…what's the point in paying more for a seat in coach that's simply called "business class" even though it's otherwise the exact same coach seat?

That gave me the impression that for you it was all about the seat. And with their equipment situation, there’s nothing they can realistically do about the seat (in the short term).

 

[IndyLions]

What about family groups or couples who board at an intermediate station or who aren't as good at pushing their way to the front of the line as solo travelers are when the train boards at the originating station?

Ultimately, that’s why BC customers need the ability to reserve specific seats. But we both know with Amtrak’s IT department, that’s probably a really long putt right now on LD.

I haven’t really had a whole lot of problems with OBS pre-assigning seats for me. I did have one funny pre-assignment situation that cropped up one time on the Card, riding solo in BC. I boarded to find I had been allocated two seats together. Effectively, my own row.

Turns out they had misread the manifest, and interpreted the reservation for myself and my bicycle as a party of two!

 

[Mailliw]

For Acela they could just designate the two classes as Acela Coach and Acela First, instead of what they have now.

On Metroliners briefly they had Metro Coach and Metro Club as I seem to recall. They certainly required a surcharge for travel by Coach on Metroliner over and above the base Coach charge. But that was very much in line with the practice of charging surcharge for travel by special "higher level" trains.

I've seen pictures of Avelia Liberty cars labeled "Acela Class" so maybe they are dropping the Business Class label.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I've seen pictures of Avelia Liberty cars labeled "Acela Class" so maybe they are dropping the Business Class label.

Wonder if you'll get any "perks" over and above the current, "pay your money and get a seat!"??

 

[Mailliw]

Doubtful, hopefully it'll keep the 25% AGR bonus. At the very least they should give it the same refund flexibility as real business class seats.

 

[BBoy]

Amtrak needs to order viewliner ll coach cars and viewliner ll lounge cars / business class to give passengers the option for business class on all long distance trains east of the Mississippi... Mewer amenities just might be more attractive and mae it more popular.