Mandatory Crew Changes

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ThayerATM

OBS Chief
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
595
Location
Rochester, NY
In reading the posts about the miserable winter conditions we're experiencing, some questions have arisin in my head.

How long can the Engineer and Conductor work before they go dead? I used to know the answer to that, but I've forgotten.

Since five trains are currently on my "special interest" list, where do those five trains normally have crew changes, assuming all five are running on-time, and are these ususally also service/fuel stops?

49 (NYP to CHI)

5 (CHI to EMY)

14 (LAX to SEA)

8 (SEA to CHI)

48 (CHI to ROC)

I've got their normal timetables, so with that information I can probably figure out where they will HAVE to change crews if they're running late due to "inconveniences" like the weather? :unsure: :rolleyes: :lol:

Thanks!! :hi:
 
I believe it's 12 hours for conductors... and a little less than that for engineers.

#5 CREW CHANGES:

Chicago, IL

Ottumwa, IA (engineer)

Omaha, NE

Denver, CO

Grand Junction, CO

Salt Lake City, UT

Winnemucca, NV

Reno, NV

Sacramento, CA

Emeryville, CA

#14 CREW CHANGES:

Los Angeles, CA

San Luis Obispo, CA

Oakland, CA

Klamath Falls, OR

Portland, OR

Seattle, WA

#8 CREW CHANGES:

Seattle, WA

Spokane, WA

Whitefish, MT

Havre, MT

Minot, ND

St Cloud, MN

Winona, MN

Chicago, IL

And... I'm not 100 percent sure about #48 and #49. I know I'd be Chicago, Toledo, but not really sure beyond that since I take the train more west out of Chicago than east usually.
 
It's 12 hours for conductors always and engineers provided that there is an engineer and a fireman in the cab. Otherwise the engineer can only work 8 hours.
 
I'm not 100 percent sure about #48 and #49. I know I'd be Chicago, Toledo, but not really sure beyond that since I take the train more west out of Chicago than east usually.
How do you take 48 and 49 west of Chicago?
huh.gif
They start or end in CHI and run between CHI and NYP or BOS only!
blink.gif
 
It's 12 hours for conductors always and engineers provided that there is an engineer and a fireman in the cab. Otherwise the engineer can only work 8 hours.
I think the 8 hour limit for an engineer alone in the cab is an Amtrak/union-negotiated rule, not Federal HOS. If, for some reason, a run with one engineer takes over 8 hours due to some operating conditions, I don't think he dies on the law and brings the train to a halt, as he would have to it if it were an HOS limit. I think he just continues operating, and gets penalty pay.
 
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I'm not 100 percent sure about #48 and #49. I know I'd be Chicago, Toledo, but not really sure beyond that since I take the train more west out of Chicago than east usually.
How do you take 48 and 49 west of Chicago?
huh.gif
They start or end in CHI and run between CHI and NYP or BOS only!
blink.gif
Evidently you left your glasses down by the pool. :lol:

That original post mentioned 49 from NYP to CHI. 49 is a westbound train, last time I checked; and as near as I can figure, NYP is east of CHI, thus requiring 49 to travel west to CHI.

Also, the origanal post mentioned 48, from CHI to ROC. I'm pretty sure that 48 runs eastward from CHI to ROC, unless someone has done something real dastardly with the maps I've seen lately. :unsure: :D

My take on rtaburn's post was that he was saying that he usually takes trains westward out of CHI, and thus wasn't sure about the crew changes for either 48 or 49. In any case, it's given me a good starting point for my own triptik database. :cool:
 
It's 12 hours for conductors always and engineers provided that there is an engineer and a fireman in the cab. Otherwise the engineer can only work 8 hours.
I think the 8 hour limit for an engineer alone in the cab is an Amtrak/union-negotiated rule, not Federal HOS. If, for some reason, a run with one engineer takes over 8 hours due to some operating conditions, I don't think he dies on the law and brings the train to a halt, as he would have to it if it were an HOS limit. I think he just continues operating, and gets penalty pay.
That would make sense. I remember that MANY YEARS AGO there was a big deal made of the fact that the railroads (maybe Amtrak :unsure: ) were trying to do away with firemen entirely. There's little need for a fireman shoveling coal into the firebox anymore, but many jobs were going to be eliminated, and the union fought for them.

Personally, I feel that it's a good thing to have two brains and four hands up there in the driver's seat. Maybe we need to change the names of some job descriptions, but I really don't think it's a good idea to have just one guy sitting up there driving the train for 12 hours, or even eight hours. <_<
 
This stuff is spelled out in detail in the CFR's (Code of Federal Regulations) For a somewhat simplified version, see www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/PubAffairs/Hours%20of%20Service%20FINAL%20092208doc.pdf

The statements relevant to the question asked are:

A train employee is defined as an individual engaged in or connected with the movement of a train. This includes locomotive engineers, conductors and brakemen. Train employees may spend up to 12 hours on duty. If they are on duty less than 12 hours in a 24-hour period, the statute requires that they receive 8 hours off duty. If they are on duty for 12 consecutive hours, the statute requires a minimum off-duty period of 10 hours.
Time on duty includes all time spent engaged in or connected with the movement of a train, time spent in transportation from the employee's reporting point to the location of an assignment, and any other service performed for the railroad. Time spent awaiting and in deadhead transportation to the point of final release, where the train employee will spend the required off-duty period, is neither time on duty nor time off duty, commonly referred to in the industry as "limbo time." There is no limit on the amount of limbo time that an employee may experience in a 24-hour period, and the combination of time on duty and limbo time may exceed 12 hours.
Under this definition, dining car crew, sleeping car attendents, and such like are not "train employees" because they are not part of the crew "engaged in or connected with the movement of the train."

This time can be exceeded in emergency, however the definition of emergency has been interpreted so tightly that unless it is literally a matter of life and death or something very close when the 12 hour limit is reached the train is stopped and stays put until a legally rested crew (whether just engineer or engineer and conductor, I am not sure) can get to it.
 
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It's 12 hours for conductors always and engineers provided that there is an engineer and a fireman in the cab. Otherwise the engineer can only work 8 hours.
I think the 8 hour limit for an engineer alone in the cab is an Amtrak/union-negotiated rule, not Federal HOS. If, for some reason, a run with one engineer takes over 8 hours due to some operating conditions, I don't think he dies on the law and brings the train to a halt, as he would have to it if it were an HOS limit. I think he just continues operating, and gets penalty pay.
That would make sense. I remember that MANY YEARS AGO there was a big deal made of the fact that the railroads (maybe Amtrak :unsure: ) were trying to do away with firemen entirely. There's little need for a fireman shoveling coal into the firebox anymore, but many jobs were going to be eliminated, and the union fought for them.

Personally, I feel that it's a good thing to have two brains and four hands up there in the driver's seat. Maybe we need to change the names of some job descriptions, but I really don't think it's a good idea to have just one guy sitting up there driving the train for 12 hours, or even eight hours. <_<
The name of the job has already changed. There is no such thing as a fireman at Amtrak. The second engineer is called the Assistant Engineer.

Under the existing contract rules, a second (assistant) engineer is required for any scheduled run exceeding six hours. That's why you may see some locations where only the engineer changes, but the conductor runs through.
 
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Where are the crew change points on the NEC? I know WAS, PHL, NYP, NHV, BOS, but is there a method to what train changes where?
 
In 2006, Trains had a "map of the month" that showed all of Amtrak's crew districts. Some things may have changed since then, but, nevertheless, here's a link to an image of that map. One thing that may be a bit confusing is that the arrows point to the away terminals.

 
It's 12 hours for conductors always and engineers provided that there is an engineer and a fireman in the cab. Otherwise the engineer can only work 8 hours.
I think the 8 hour limit for an engineer alone in the cab is an Amtrak/union-negotiated rule, not Federal HOS. If, for some reason, a run with one engineer takes over 8 hours due to some operating conditions, I don't think he dies on the law and brings the train to a halt, as he would have to it if it were an HOS limit. I think he just continues operating, and gets penalty pay.
Absolutely correctumundo...
 
#7/27, 8/28 crew change points are;

Seattle

Portland

Wenatchee (engineer only)

Pasco ( engineer only)

Spokane

Whitefish, MT (engineer only)

Shelby, MT

Minot, ND

St Cloud, MN

Winona, MN

Chicago
 
How do you take 48 and 49 west of Chicago?
huh.gif
They start or end in CHI and run between CHI and NYP or BOS only!
blink.gif
Evidently you left your glasses down by the pool. :lol:
Sorry, my glasses got fogged up while I was in the sauna in the penthouse suite!
mosking.gif

All this time I thought that your glasses only fogged up when you went from the pool to the hot tub on the lower level. From my own rail travel experience My glass do not fog up in the penthouse sauna as it is dry heat until my servant is told to throw water on the heated stones!

:blush: :help: :giggle:
 
I'm not 100 percent sure about #48 and #49. I know I'd be Chicago, Toledo, but not really sure beyond that since I take the train more west out of Chicago than east usually.
How do you take 48 and 49 west of Chicago?
huh.gif
They start or end in CHI and run between CHI and NYP or BOS only!
blink.gif
I was saying I don't really know about the crew changes for #48 and #49 because I normally take the train more west out of Chicago than east... that is why I knew the crew changes for the western trains and wasnt sure about the LSL (since it does go east)
 
Sorry, my glasses got fogged up while I was in the sauna in the penthouse suite!
mosking.gif
My glass do not fog up in the penthouse sauna as it is dry heat until my servant is told to throw water on the heated stones!

:blush: :help: :giggle:
That's when they fogged up!
laugh.gif
(And of course I only use bottled natural spring water!
biggrin.gif
If I run out, I am forced to use champagne!
tongue.gif
)
 
Sorry, my glasses got fogged up while I was in the sauna in the penthouse suite!
mosking.gif
My glass do not fog up in the penthouse sauna as it is dry heat until my servant is told to throw water on the heated stones!

:blush: :help: :giggle:
That's when they fogged up! :lol: (And of course I only use bottled natural spring water! :D If I run out, I am forced to use champagne!
tongue.gif
)
You Guys. Are absolutely nuts, Mahalo and aloha :lol: :D :hi:
 
It's 12 hours for conductors always and engineers provided that there is an engineer and a fireman in the cab. Otherwise the engineer can only work 8 hours.
I think the 8 hour limit for an engineer alone in the cab is an Amtrak/union-negotiated rule, not Federal HOS. If, for some reason, a run with one engineer takes over 8 hours due to some operating conditions, I don't think he dies on the law and brings the train to a halt, as he would have to it if it were an HOS limit. I think he just continues operating, and gets penalty pay.
That would make sense. I remember that MANY YEARS AGO there was a big deal made of the fact that the railroads (maybe Amtrak :unsure: ) were trying to do away with firemen entirely. There's little need for a fireman shoveling coal into the firebox anymore, but many jobs were going to be eliminated, and the union fought for them.

Personally, I feel that it's a good thing to have two brains and four hands up there in the driver's seat. Maybe we need to change the names of some job descriptions, but I really don't think it's a good idea to have just one guy sitting up there driving the train for 12 hours, or even eight hours. <_<
The name of the job has already changed. There is no such thing as a fireman at Amtrak. The second engineer is called the Assistant Engineer.

Under the existing contract rules, a second (assistant) engineer is required for any scheduled run exceeding six hours. That's why you may see some locations where only the engineer changes, but the conductor runs through.
Thanks, Trogdor. I was pretty sure I knew the mechanism, but wasn't sure of the current time limit for one person operation. I knew it used to be six hours, but things change, and I took eight by AlanB at face value.
 
#7/27, 8/28 crew change points are;

Seattle

Portland

Wenatchee (engineer only)

Pasco ( engineer only)

Spokane

Whitefish, MT (engineer only)

Shelby, MT

Minot, ND

St Cloud, MN

Winona, MN

Chicago
Thank you very much. :hi:

Your info fits nicely into the timetable I have in my spreadsheet while planning my trip this fall, as well as the info that rtabern sent. Both sets of info meet Federal standards, as well as Amtrak standards for engineers and conductors. Especially considering it's no real trick to put an assistant engineer in the cab. Despite the fact that those poor conductors might have to work a 12 hour shift, I think I'd still prefer to be a conductor, rather than an engineer.

MOVING RIGHT ALONG --- I'm still missing information about 49 from NYP to CHI, and 48 from CHI to ROC. :unsure:

Is there anyone out there who knows, or knows where I can look it up?
 
Where are the crew change points on the NEC? I know WAS, PHL, NYP, NHV, BOS, but is there a method to what train changes where?
Philly is only a crew change point for I believe the Keystones and the Pennsy. No other NEC trains change crews at Philly.

Acela crews change only in NY, making a crew run either DC to NY or Boston to NY.

Regionals change in both NY and New Haven. The main reason for that is the fact that pre-electrification, you went from electrics to diesels and vice versa. It's kept that way today largely because of the contract and perhaps a small bit because of service to Springfield.
 
Sorry, my glasses got fogged up while I was in the sauna in the penthouse suite!
mosking.gif
My glass do not fog up in the penthouse sauna as it is dry heat until my servant is told to throw water on the heated stones!

:blush: :help: :giggle:
That's when they fogged up! :lol: (And of course I only use bottled natural spring water! :D If I run out, I am forced to use champagne!
tongue.gif
)
You Guys. Are absolutely nuts, Mahalo and aloha :lol: :D :hi:
Thank you very much. :hi: Speaking strictly for myself, I consider that a great compliment, as it's true of me, and I appreciate being found consistant. :lol:

Still... I'm lacking the crew change locations for 48 and 49. I've sneaked through Traveler's car and looked everywhere. -_-

The only place I haven't looked is in his champagne locker in his wine cellar. But I'm sure you know why. You know how Traveler can get about intruders. :D
 
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