MBTA discussion

[Fenway]

Who are the pols and others responsible for this fiasco?

Deval Patrick was governor of Massachusetts and Rich Davey was general manager of the T when the deal was brokered in 2014 with CRRC for the Orange Line cars. Charlie Baker as governor then added the Red Line contract in 2017.


Baker is now president of the NCAA. Davey is now president of the MTA in New York.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

It is puzzling what is happening with the CRRC plant in Springfield, given that CRRC has capably produced cars for its own domestic use plus contracts for other countries. Just bad management at this plant ?

 

[Brian Battuello]

Yet another "only on the MBTA" experience.

I happen to live an Uber ride from the Medford/Tufts new Green Line extension, and needed to get to North Station, so decided to give it a try. Inbound, the end-of-the-line station was clean and easy to use, with convenient elevators for a luggaged traveller. The train came quickly and zoomed into town adjacent to the Purple/Amtrak tracks. Nice ride. When we approached North Station, I was aware that they were providing shuttle service to Government center due to a construction project. As we entered the underground station, there were literally about eight MBTA personnel in safety vests placing and removing traffic cones from the tracks. We had to wait a few minutes until they got radio clearance, the cone was removed, and we were signalled with a traditional lantern up-and-down to proceed. I thought this was a bit odd but didn't really affect us.

It was the return trip where it got strange. Still no service south of North Station. I found the platform, and there was a very helpful if tired and frazzled MBTA employee giving directions. He said he had been on duty over 13 hours, but was hanging in there. There was only one track available, and northbound from North Station there are only two options, Medford/Tufts or Union Square. The switch is just beyond the Lechmere station. A train pulled in and unloaded everyone, and the advice guy tried to direct them to the shuttle. Now it really got weird. It seemed that the driver, now located at the northbound end of the train, could not determine or find out if he was going to Medford/Tufts or to Union Square. They told him they would let him know at Lechmere. So he and the advice guy loaded everyone onto the train, and we pulled out, taking our chances. At Lechmere, he announced that we were in fact going to Medford/Tufts, and that Union Square passengers should get off and wait for the next train. I don't think I've ever been on a train/subway/trolley where not even the driver knew where he was going.

He and I chatted a bit on the way to Medford/Tufts, and he said that they had not installed signalling for leaving North Station northbound from the southbound track, hence all the manual signals. And he said that all day he had no clue where the train was going when he left North Station. Heck of a way to run a railroad!

 

[Brian Battuello]

Also, one of the many things driving the advice guy nuts was the collection of people trying to get to "Tufts". Tufts is the name of a fine university in mid-Medford. But it happens that Tufts also has a major medical center in western Boston. It is served by the Orange line by a station called appropriately "Tufts Medical Center". But our long-suffering advice guy was besieged by people asking for directions to "Tufts". It seems that the new end of the Green Line Extension (GLX for short) was originally called "College Avenue" because it is (duh) right on College Avenue. But someone changed the name to "Medford/Tufts". So now the MBTA has two "Tufts" stations, on two different lines and many miles apart. I hope not too many people head to Medford hoping to visit their friend in the hospital!

 

[Fenway]

It is puzzling what is happening with the CRRC plant in Springfield, given that CRRC has capably produced cars for its own domestic use plus contracts for other countries. Just bad management at this plant ?

CRRC doesn't seem to have issues with their plant in Chicago.

 

[Trogdor]

CRRC doesn't seem to have issues with their plant in Chicago.

Don’t they? Official news about the 7000s has been hard to come by (perhaps because CTA is extremely secretive about bad news), but car deliveries have been late, reportedly halted multiple times, and CTA recently released both an RFP for rehabbing older cars (including an option for cars that the 7000s were supposed to replace) as well as announced funding to prepare for a new series of 9000s that finish off the cars that the 7000s were supposed to retire.

Based on that, it seems that CTA doesn’t have a lot of confidence in the 7000s.

 

[Fenway]

WBZ-TV political analyst Jon Keller talks to new MBTA GM and CEO Phillip Eng.

 

[Fenway]

Don’t they? Official news about the 7000s has been hard to come by (perhaps because CTA is extremely secretive about bad news), but car deliveries have been late, reportedly halted multiple times, and CTA recently released both an RFP for rehabbing older cars (including an option for cars that the 7000s were supposed to replace) as well as announced funding to prepare for a new series of 9000s that finish off the cars that the 7000s were supposed to retire.

Based on that, it seems that CTA doesn’t have a lot of confidence in the 7000s.

@Trogdor - Thanks for that update.

The LA Metro order with CRRC Springfield seems to be in limbo as well.

The Orange Line in Boston now limps along as they are only using the new CRRC cars available as the Hawker-Siddeley cars from 1979-81 have been retired after the fire last year. Currently, they are reporting 86 available cars with 64 more to come.

The Red Line situation is truly heartbreaking and it will get worse before it gets better.

You have 62 cars active that were built by Pullman-Standard between 1969-1971 (that were rehabbed in 1985-1988), 52 active UTCD cars from 1987-1989 ( that were rehabbed in 2011-2016 ), and 82 active Bombardier cars built between 1993-1994 that have not been rehabbed.

Currently, the Red Line has TEN new CRRC cars active with 242 on order.

It boggles my mind that the T would allow the crown jewel of the heavy rail lines to have the rolling stock issues they face today.

 

[jis]

What amazes me is that MBTA repeatedly doubled down on CRRC placing additional orders before ever getting any working car from them. Someone was asleep at the purchasing department or the place is populated with rubber stamping jocks disconnected from actually managing a procurement.

 

[joelkfla]

I don't know what's expected of them at this point. They can't force CRRC to deliver quality cars. The most they can do is cancel the order, which would probably be followed by a drawn-out legal battle to recover any money that has already paid.

Then they'd have to get new funds for a new order with a different vendor, which would have to go thru the bidding process again. And after a bid was awarded, it could be another 5 years until they see any cars, and based on recent experiences, 8-10 years for delivery to be completed. Meanwhile, they'd be stuck with the existing fleet continuing to deteriorate.

 

[jis]

I don't know what's expected of them at this point. They can't force CRRC to deliver quality cars. The most they can do is cancel the order, which would probably be followed by a drawn-out legal battle to recover any money that has already paid.

Then they'd have to get new funds for a new order with a different vendor, which would have to go thru the bidding process again. And after a bid was awarded, it could be another 5 years until they see any cars, and based on recent experiences, 8-10 years for delivery to be completed. Meanwhile, they'd be stuck with the existing fleet continuing to deteriorate.

They have no choice but to go through the exquisite experience of being wrapped around the barrel that they have placed themselves voluntarily onto. They will suffer for upto a decade if they are lucky, and the Massachusetts taxpayers will have the pleasure of funding their experience.

 

[Fenway]

I don't know what's expected of them at this point. They can't force CRRC to deliver quality cars. The most they can do is cancel the order, which would probably be followed by a drawn-out legal battle to recover any money that has already paid.

Then they'd have to get new funds for a new order with a different vendor, which would have to go thru the bidding process again. And after a bid was awarded, it could be another 5 years until they see any cars, and based on recent experiences, 8-10 years for delivery to be completed. Meanwhile, they'd be stuck with the existing fleet continuing to deteriorate.

The CRRC timeline

Timeline of MBTA’s $870.5M contract with Chinese-owned CRRC

Even before the MBTA inked its then roughly $566 million deal with low bidder CRRC MA in 2014 to produce the MBTA’s new Orange and Red Line trains, concerns were raised about the deal.

www.bostonherald.com

 

[Fenway]

I don't know what's expected of them at this point. They can't force CRRC to deliver quality cars. The most they can do is cancel the order, which would probably be followed by a drawn-out legal battle to recover any money that has already paid.

Then they'd have to get new funds for a new order with a different vendor, which would have to go thru the bidding process again. And after a bid was awarded, it could be another 5 years until they see any cars, and based on recent experiences, 8-10 years for delivery to be completed. Meanwhile, they'd be stuck with the existing fleet continuing to deteriorate.

It is stunning that in the 8 1/2 years since the contract was signed only 96 cars are in service. The first cars entered revenue service in August 2019, 4 years and 9 months after the deal was announced.

What concerns me more is what a recently retired friend who worked at the T told me. He said the 1963 Pullman-Standard Bluebirds which may have been the cheapest heavy rail car in history were Sherman Tanks compared to what CRRC has given us. We got 30 years from the Bluebirds, we will be lucky if the CRRC cars last 20.

I have wondered for decades why transit systems don't work together when it is time to upgrade the rolling stock. The MBTA's Red Line, SEPTA's BSL, and NY Transit B Division specs are very similar.

Short term the T needs to order CRRC to make new Red Line cars a priority so the Pullman-Standards can be retired.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

A couple of thoughts about the acceptance of the bid from CRRC:
- Could the T have rejected the bid even though it was $100 million+ lower than the next lowest bid?
- Would there have been any basis at that time (not knowing what we know now) for rejecting CRRC as a bidder?
It is easy to have 20/20 hindsight but could we have foreseen these problems back in 2014?

 

[jis]

A couple of thoughts about the acceptance of the bid from CRRC:
- Could the T have rejected the bid even though it was $100 million+ lower than the next lowest bid?
- Would there have been any basis at that time (not knowing what we know now) for rejecting CRRC as a bidder?
It is easy to have 20/20 hindsight but could we have foreseen these problems back in 2014?

If they had a purchase management organization supported by a capable engineering department which is able to dig deep into the bid beyond the marketing fluff and deflections and find flaws, then of course the bid can be rejected on that basis. Unfortunately most outfits these days have emaciated their engineering departments to the extent that the institutional knowledge necessary is gone in the fond belief that somehow the cheaper inexperienced people can substitute for the more expensive engineers. And ergo as the night follows the day, these things happen. It really is a crisis of management that we are going through, and there is little to suggest that one can be optimistic that this will end anytime soon. OK now I am done with my rant for a few weeks

 

[Fenway]

You might have another decade to ride the old PCC trolleys on the Mattapan Line

The Dorchester Reporter provides an update on the MBTA's plans to replace the current 1940s trolleys on the Mattapan Line with more recent Green Line trolleys: It could take a decade to get everything ready and would involve the elimination of the current loop track at Ashmont.

www.universalhub.com

 

[west point]

Some agencies are now issuing request for qualification first ( RFQ ) . To me that can eliminate those not qualified and give wide latitude to investigate reputation, financial worthiness, officers, history, past deeds and misdeeds.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

You might have another decade to ride the old PCC trolleys on the Mattapan Line

The Dorchester Reporter provides an update on the MBTA's plans to replace the current 1940s trolleys on the Mattapan Line with more recent Green Line trolleys: It could take a decade to get everything ready and would involve the elimination of the current loop track at Ashmont.

www.universalhub.com

Probably a good thing to get rid of the Ashmont Loop as the noise of the trolleys going around the loop has been a problem for nearby residents and one that they have not been able to solve. The Type 9's being double ended don't need to be looped. I wonder if they would consider simplifying the Mattapan layout and eliminating some loops there also.

 

[Fenway]

Friday comes - more problems

 

[Fenway]

The T needs to bite the bullet and retire the Pullman-Standard cars before anything else happens

System meant to lock doors on moving Red Line trains sealed the fate of a man dragged to his death at Broadway, feds say

The National Transportation Safety Board has concluded that a short circuit on one of the Red Line's older trains led to Robinson Lalin getting stuck in a door as the train pulled out of Broadway station on April 10, 2022, but that other systems that might have prevented his death also failed...

www.universalhub.com

NTSB report

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RIR2307.pdf

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

"he MBTA now claims it will replace them all [the Pullmans] by next March."
I doubt it, the way things are going with the CRRC cars.

If they pull all the #1 cars (1500 and 1600 series) that leaves them with 52 #2 (1700s) and 82 #3 (1800s) plus 10 CRRC cars. That is enough for 22 6 car trains. Note that you cannot trainline the #2 and #3 cars so you can't make up a train with the mixed extra cars.
They need 20 to meet current rush hour headways, and you need some trains set aside for servicing etc,
So in reality they would probably have to run a Saturday service which is 12 trains, 6 for each branch.
Alternatively they could bus the Braintree Branch to JFK/UMass and give people the option of using bus or commuter rail.

 

[Fenway]

Not the T's fault but they will be blamed for it

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

With the Sumner Tunnel closing for 2 months, July and August, the T has an opportunity here to win riders over for travel to East Boston, North Shore, and the Airport.
Unfortunately all the bad publicity will make this hard to overcome.

 

[Fenway]

The T will take the heat for this but again not their fault



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[daybeers]

I mean, a 42 day closure on a line extension that just opened is extremely short-sighted. MassDOT should've done the work before it opened.