Midwest Venture introduction

[jis]

Indeed, there's enough lead time for the Amfleet replacements for Amtrak to take advantage of passenger feedback re the CA/IDOT seating arrangements.

Additionally, they also have time to take feedback from customers on all matters experienced in the Acela 21 sets.

 

[Cal]

Actually, Amtrak couldn't have, since none of it is owned by Amtrak If anyone could have it is IDOT who are the designated managers of the acquisition of the Midwest rolling stock from Siemens.

Okay, yes, you're right. But I still agree with my point, just shifting the blame.

It has been noted (maybe on here?) that the Siemens Charger paint scheme was designed to match the Nippon Sharyo bilevels that never got built. I’ve seen some mention that the locomotives will be re-striped at some point to match the single-level cars.

I didn't know this, thanks for the information!

 

[Burns651]

I don't think it has sunk in yet for some people that these cars are operated by Amtrak, not spec'd, purchased, or owned by Amtrak. The Midwest Consortium and California, with IDOT in the lead called the shots. Comments have also been made about how people won't like the interior or seats when they go into widespread service for Amtrak, when we don't even know yet what seats they will actually buy.

For Midwest trains, this thread's focus, we do know what seats they have bought and they are in service. The general public won't realize nor care that Amtrak didn't spec and doesn't own the cars. People buy their tickets from Amtrak and the trains say Amtrak, and that's all people will care about if these seats prove to be uncomfortable.

 

[PVD]

I was referencing people on this and other "rail" forums, they should know the difference. The general public is a different story.

 

[Trogdor]

I took a quick ride over the weekend. Just a one-hour trip.

My impression on the seats: The difference in cushioning vs. the Amfleet I rode on the way back is definitely noticeable. That said, I wouldn’t necessarily call the new seats uncomfortable. After maybe five minutes of sitting down, I seriously didn’t even notice.

Some of the firmness will likely naturally adjust as the seats are worn in a bit (when the new seat cushions on Amfleet/Horizon cars were installed a couple years ago, they were pretty firm as well; that’s just the nature of new seat cushions vs. ones that have been sat in for years). I’d be more concerned about what those seats feel like 2-3 years from now vs. today.

The width, on the other hand, was definitely noticeable. Sitting next to the window, my arm was pushed a bit more into the wall. I had a seat pair to myself so I didn’t quite get the full experience of the narrowness of the seat, and I did fold the center armrest up just to take advantage of the slight extra width that affords.

The forward-sliding recline feature does have limited travel, but that’s always going to be a bit controversial as folks who recline with the traditional seats are really taking more space for themselves at the expense of the person behind them, whereas the slide-forward doesn’t give you any more space, but rather forces one to stay within the “budget” of the space they already had. It would not be sufficient for getting any kind of sleep, but I suppose that’s not what this fleet is really intended for.

I’m sure some will try to vehemently disagree with me, but I think a lot of the complaints about seat hardness are psychological. If you weren’t specifically looking for a reason to complain about the seats, odds are most folks wouldn’t really even care. I recall when the current Amfleet/Horizon seats were retrofitted, and some folks on some of the Facebook groups would complain about how the “new“ seats had so much less legroom and it was clear evidence of Richard Anderson taking his airline mentality to Amtrak by stuffing in more people per car, etc. In reality, everything they were whining about was in their head, they were just trying to convince themselves they didn’t like it to fit their pre-established narrative.

I’ve seen a lot of that with these new seats as well, reading comments in various places (such as the very same Facebook groups). The folks who complained the loudest are those predisposed to seeing fault in everything that happens.

 

[neroden]

I agree with all your points except
The ventures only have a wheelchair lift in the cafe cars, which are not constructed yet. If that lift fails, a wheelchair user can't roll into the next car and use that car's lift.

I've been trying to figure out which cars have wheelchair lifts in the Venture order, and it seems to be different between the Midwest cars, the California cars, and the Pacific Northwest cars. If they really only put one lift into the cafe and nothing else for the Illinois cars, that isn't very bright of Illinois long-term. But it'll probably be different for the other two orders.

Although... with the *current* situation where Amtrak is supposed to have platform-based lifts at all stations, the cafe car lift is basically acting as a backup for the platform-based lifts. So being able to roll into the cafe car *is* the backup. So maybe that's what they were thinking. That does make sense.

 

[Crowbar_k]

https://thepointsguy.com/news/amtrak-new-siemens-train-onboard/

 

[rs9]

https://thepointsguy.com/news/amtrak-new-siemens-train-onboard/

From the pictures, the recline does not look very generous or meaningful. So the initial upright comfort would be pretty important.

Does any company currently produce seats similar to the ones found on Amfleet II cars or Amfleet I club cars? Although my knowledge of the industry is zero, I wouldn't be surprised if the current Venture seats are simply what the market offers at this point.

On a trip on Spain's REFNE high speed rail in 2020, the coach seats were fairly comparable in model to the Venture seats. Can't recall the recline abilities.

 

[Crowbar_k]

From the pictures, the recline does not look very generous or meaningful. So the initial upright comfort would be pretty important.

In my opinion, the old seats were a little TOO generous with the recliner. The person in front of you could practically go into your lap. To be fair, I dont really care about the recline that much. I usually just keep my seat in the upright position because I'm more comfortable that way.

Now, this is just a hunch, but maybe they are doing this so people are likely to buy business class.

 

[Exvalley]

https://thepointsguy.com/news/amtrak-new-siemens-train-onboard/

Hmm...

And while I was fairly comfortable during my one-hour ride between Chicago and Joliet, I could see these seats being a little too stiff for longer journeys, such as the five-hour passage all the way through to St. Louis.

Unfortunately, seat width also decreases from about 21 inches on the Amfleet and Horizon cars to about 19.1 inches. Since I rode the Venture and Amfleet back to back, I could absolutely notice less padding and narrower seats on the newer coaches.

Overall, though, I can’t help but feel slightly underwhelmed by the Venture fleet. It’s modern and functional with usable Wi-Fi, better restrooms and impressive accessibility. But the seats themselves feel like a step backward and feel more airline-like than most people may want.

 

[joelkfla]

In my opinion, the old seats were a little TOO generous with the recliner. The person in front of you could practically go into your lap. To be fair, I dont really care about the recline that much. I usually just keep my seat in the upright position because I'm more comfortable that way.

Now, this is just a hunch, but maybe they are doing this so people are likely to buy business class.

But as someone pointed out above, we don't know whether the LD trains will have the same seating. Hopefully Amtrak mgt recognizes that more recline is needed for a comfortable night's sleep, and hopefully seats with more recline are available. Until then, if you want to take a nap on a Midwestern train, you'll just have to deal with it.

 

[Exvalley]

we don't know whether the LD trains will have the same seating.

I can't imagine that long distanced trains will have the same seating - at least as far as seat pitch is concerned. Seat width may wind up being the same.

 

[daybeers]

And while I was fairly comfortable during my one-hour ride between Chicago and Joliet, I could see these seats being a little too stiff for longer journeys, such as the five-hour passage all the way through to St. Louis.

I think this is the main issue. They're okay for short trips but for longer ones, they don't seem adequate. Really disappointed in the seat recline being just the bottom cushion moving forward 2.4 inches.

Now if CREATE could move along, maybe it wouldn't be five hours...

I also saw that sadly the business class cars won't be coming until late 2022 and the cafe cars not until 2023!?

Oddly, these new trains were built with only one set of doors per side, which theoretically would slow the boarding and deboarding process down.

Wait wait, so there's a cutout for a door, but they decided NOT to put one there?!? Who the hell decided that would be a good idea?!?!?

 

[frequentflyer]

I took a quick ride over the weekend. Just a one-hour trip.

My impression on the seats: The difference in cushioning vs. the Amfleet I rode on the way back is definitely noticeable. That said, I wouldn’t necessarily call the new seats uncomfortable. After maybe five minutes of sitting down, I seriously didn’t even notice.

Some of the firmness will likely naturally adjust as the seats are worn in a bit (when the new seat cushions on Amfleet/Horizon cars were installed a couple years ago, they were pretty firm as well; that’s just the nature of new seat cushions vs. ones that have been sat in for years). I’d be more concerned about what those seats feel like 2-3 years from now vs. today.

The width, on the other hand, was definitely noticeable. Sitting next to the window, my arm was pushed a bit more into the wall. I had a seat pair to myself so I didn’t quite get the full experience of the narrowness of the seat, and I did fold the center armrest up just to take advantage of the slight extra width that affords.

The forward-sliding recline feature does have limited travel, but that’s always going to be a bit controversial as folks who recline with the traditional seats are really taking more space for themselves at the expense of the person behind them, whereas the slide-forward doesn’t give you any more space, but rather forces one to stay within the “budget” of the space they already had. It would not be sufficient for getting any kind of sleep, but I suppose that’s not what this fleet is really intended for.

I’m sure some will try to vehemently disagree with me, but I think a lot of the complaints about seat hardness are psychological. If you weren’t specifically looking for a reason to complain about the seats, odds are most folks wouldn’t really even care. I recall when the current Amfleet/Horizon seats were retrofitted, and some folks on some of the Facebook groups would complain about how the “new“ seats had so much less legroom and it was clear evidence of Richard Anderson taking his airline mentality to Amtrak by stuffing in more people per car, etc. In reality, everything they were whining about was in their head, they were just trying to convince themselves they didn’t like it to fit their pre-established narrative.

I’ve seen a lot of that with these new seats as well, reading comments in various places (such as the very same Facebook groups). The folks who complained the loudest are those predisposed to seeing fault in everything that happens.

So how did the new cars ride? Quieter? Less yawing motion?

 

[Trogdor]

https://thepointsguy.com/news/amtrak-new-siemens-train-onboard/

That guy was on my train. I saw him at Joliet. How about that!

So how did the new cars ride? Quieter? Less yawing motion?

Generally quieter. Didn’t notice any yawing motion, but I didn’t really notice all that much in the Amfleet either. Will have to ride it on various routes to see how it handles some of the rougher stretches.

The key will be whether the end doors can properly maintain their seals, as that will be the key to keeping the interior quieter. The doors open and close smoothly, and there was an extra set of doors above the couplers (the inner doors were automatically triggered, the next set appeared to have a push button, but I didn’t see the exact triggering mechanism as I only caught a brief glimpse).

 

[Cal]

I really like that the electronic signs show if the restroom is occupied or not

 

[jis]

If their ride is anything like the Brightline cars they would be very smooth riders on reasonable track

 

[Crowbar_k]

Wait wait, so there's a cutout for a door, but they decided NOT to put one there?!? Who the hell decided that would be a good idea?!?!?

I'm pretty sure that's standard practice.

 

[rs9]

I can't imagine that long distanced trains will have the same seating - at least as far as seat pitch is concerned. Seat width may wind up being the same.

Yeah, using a similar model for long distance trains would likely require getting rid of the leg support cushion, among other things. No meaningful recline would be insane.

Of course the realistic part here is that these were purchased by IDOT, not Amtrak. So maybe it's not even worth divining what it means for the long distance fleet.

 

[daybeers]

I'm pretty sure that's standard practice.

Where? The amfleet Is have two doors, all commuter cars have two doors, they made a door cutout but didn't put a real door? What's the point in that?

 

[Crowbar_k]

Where? The amfleet Is have two doors, all commuter cars have two doors, they made a door cutout but didn't put a real door? What's the point in that?

The amfleet 2's only have one door.

Here is an Acela, ICE, TGV, Via tail lrc, and a Talgo.

 

[John Bredin]

all commuter cars have two doors

Metra has only one set of doors on each side of a car, both the electric and diesel-pulled cars.

 

[jis]

Where? The amfleet Is have two doors, all commuter cars have two doors, they made a door cutout but didn't put a real door? What's the point in that?

If one looks at the order one finds that there are a few car types that have two doors and other have four doors.


Each standard five car train set will have two married pairs with 6 doors each and a single Coach with 2 doors constituting a standard five car set. A typical set will look something like this:

D-Bus/Coach-D - S - Coach-D - H - D-Cafe/Lounge-D - S - Coach-D - H - Coach-D

where S depicts semi permanent coupler and H depicts AAR tightlock coupler. D depicts door/vestibule. The S coupled cars have the wide seamless gangways.

So on the whole I don't see a reason to get indignant about having only 2 doors in a few cars, from a single car type (apparently) that we have seen so far.

 

[MisterUptempo]

If one looks at the order one finds that there are a few car types that have two doors and other have four doors.
View attachment 27048

Each standard five car train set will have two married pairs with 6 doors each and a single Coach with 2 doors constituting a standard five car set. A typical set will look something like this:

D-Bus/Coach-D - S - Coach-D - H - D-Cafe/Lounge-D - S - Coach-D - H - Coach-D

where S depicts semi permanent coupler and H depicts AAR tightlock coupler. D depicts door/vestibule. The S coupled cars have the wide seamless gangways.

So on the whole I don't see a reason to get indignant about having only 2 doors in a few cars, from a single car type (apparently) that we have seen so far.

Another thing to remember regarding the IDOT cars - When asked why the IDOT cars aren't all semi-permanently coupled into a trainset like Caltrans' cars are, it was explained that Amtrak's Chicago shops are not currently configured to handle a set-up like that, but when the shops are equipped to do so, the IDOT trainsets will be converted to all semi-permanently coupled.

That might explain why the IDOT coaches running on 303 and 306 have door cutouts without operating doors. When, and if, the IDOT cars are fully coupled, then we can observe whether the other doors get installed.

 

[jis]

That might explain why the IDOT coaches running on 303 and 306 have door cutouts without operating doors. When, and if, the IDOT cars are fully coupled, then we can observe whether the other doors get installed.

That is a very good point. I had completely forgotten about that future plan. Thanks for reminding.