National Network Discussion (split from Hoosier State discussion)

[neroden]

One quick thought on NJ: There are a lot of reasons for folks not wanting to live in NYC, and it's not just the taxes.

That's what Westchester is for. And if it's NYS which is disliked, there's Connecticut!

 

[afigg]

Columnist focuses on the comfort of train travel.

A positive story on passenger train travel published in the Indianapolis newspaper and challenges facing the continuation of the Hoosier State. An on-topic link! This thread has gotten a wee bit off-topic, just a little, and rather far removed from Indiana and funding the HS.

 

[Anderson]

Ok, to clarify:
Amtrak and PA were able to come to some strange agreement whereby the Pennsylvanian's costs (according to the funding formula in place) were not entirely borne by PA (unlike the rest of the state corridors) because of the through-car plan. My suggestion was that Amtrak would basically manage to declare the Pennsylvanian as part of the national system in its entirety, but only if PA would pick up a second daily train (which would also have at least some level of connection with one of the Capitol Limited frequencies I proposed). Basically, PA gets a long-term buy-one get-one with their trains (note that PA does seem to want a second frequency).

As to the logic of doing this on the Cap:

-The train presently needs three sets, but if two frequencies were timed well you could do it with about four sets (chart below).

-

All times Eastern
| 29 | *29 | *30 | 30 |
WAS | 1605 | 1905 | 0900 | 1300 |
PGH | 0000 | 0300 | 0100 | 0500 |
CLE | 0300 | 0600 | 2200 | 0200 |
TOL | 0515 | 0815 | 1945 | 2345 |
CHI | 0945 | 1245 | 1540 | 1940 |

To summarize, in CHI 29 can likely turn as *30 (7 hours) while *29 can turn as 30 (6 hours). In WAS, *30 can turn as 29 (7 hours) and 30 can turn as *29 (6 hours). Alternatively, a fifth set could be used in WAS wherein *30 would turn as *29 and 30 would be held over for the next day's 29, with protection in CHI being provided by the equipment pool there.

As a note, *29/*30 provide daylight service CLE-CHI as well as potentially providing a sort of commuter service from the far reaches of MARC territory (and beyond) into DC. Washington-Cumberland is a noticeable market on the Cap (IIRC it is about 10,000/yr), and this would likely grow it substantially (my guess is that it would rise to somewhere around 25-30k).

Also, I'll try to sort this thread out...it is well afield and I think it would do well to be broken into two separate threads.

 

[neroden]

Yeah, sorry about the topic drift.

 

[jis]

One concern I would have about going with the 2x Cap idea before addressing New York trains is that leaving the Card aside for the moment, the Cap is by far the weaker of the two trains and if a Broadway were reintroduced past experience would indicate that the New York trains will always be the stronger trains. whether they be via the ex-NYC or ex-Pennsy. Arguably Amtrak in its infinite wisdom screwed up royally when they cancelled the Broadway/Three Rivers, after mismanaging it royally first in true good old railway tradition to destroy ridership by mismanagement and then use that as an argument to can a train.

I think the first priority should be to beef up CHI - NYC/BOS service considerably before worrying about a second Cap frequency. I would do a separate CHI - NYC and CHI - BOS service together with reinstatement of the Broadway, even if on ex-B&O like the old Three Rivers in its final days, before worrying about 2x Cap.

 

[afigg]

One concern I would have about going with the 2x Cap idea before addressing New York trains is that leaving the Card aside for the moment, the Cap is by far the weaker of the two trains and if a Broadway were reintroduced past experience would indicate that the New York trains will always be the stronger trains. whether they be via the ex-NYC or ex-Pennsy. Arguably Amtrak in its infinite wisdom screwed up royally when they cancelled the Broadway/Three Rivers, after mismanaging it royally first in true good old railway tradition to destroy ridership by mismanagement and then use that as an argument to can a train.

I think the first priority should be to beef up CHI - NYC/BOS service considerably before worrying about a second Cap frequency. I would do a separate CHI - NYC and CHO - BOS service together with reinstatement of the Broadway, even if on ex-B&O like the old Three Rivers in its final days, before worrying about 2x Cap.

I agree. The ridership numbers and ticket prices for the CL indicate that it has lower demand and a weaker market than NYP hub trains. While this thread has gotten way off into LD train proposals that are simply not going to happen, it Amtrak ever restores an LD service, it should be NYP to PHL to CHI. It would connect 3 of Amtrak's largest markets and 3 cities with strong rail transit systems. I have made this argument before that a Three Rivers/BL that departs NYP circa 6:30 PM could provide daytime service between CLE and CHI (maybe rerouted through MI). Daytime service in CLE would also provide viable connections to the CLE transit system that a middle of the night train does not. Think how an LD train can be scheduled to provide seat turnover and multiple city markets along the route.

The incoming PA Governor has made statements that indicate strong support for passenger rail and transit. He will have a Republican controlled state senate and House to deal with along with the sometimes toxic Philly/Pittsburgh metro regions versus rest of the state (aka Pennslytucky) politics. So he will be constrained in what he can do with passenger rail, but Amtrak might be able to get PennDOT to provide some financial support, either through capital improvements for the Keystone corridor or subsidies for the PHL to PGH segment, for a restored Three Rivers service.

Since this is a thread about Indiana, compare a Three Rivers or a second PGH-PHL-NYP train in PA to Indiana and the HS. Pittsburgh and Philly have transit systems, although Pittsburgh's is small. The Indiana state legislature barred Indianapolis from considering light rail as an option in building a proper transit system. That political reality is why getting the state to support the HS and then expand the service to at least a daily train is an uphill fight. But if Amtrak and the advocates can achieve that much, it is something that can be built on.

 

[PerRock]

I am completely lost, I thought thread was about the Hoosier State.

Peter

 

[jis]

Hey it is an AU thread. They always meander a bit, Even I have complained about such from time to time, while eagerly aprticipating in a meander from time to time too. {sheepish smile}. Wait a while and it will meander back and then you won;t be lost anymore.

 

[Palmland]

For an off the wall idea, what if the Capitol was rerouted from Washington via Philadelphia then to Pittsburgh and Chicago on the Broadway route. Disadvantages: would require single level equipment, add about 2.5 hours to the schedule, Cumberland and Connellsville would lose service (unless the states wanted to fund an extension of MARC existing service to Martinsburg.) Advantages: would give Baltimore, Wilmington and Phila daily (and faster) direct one seat service, western PA cities would have a second daily train with full service and no change required in PGH, lower overhead costs by having two trains share station cost between PHL and PGH. If necessary a van could provide service from Connellsville for the 22 miles to the Greensburg station.

I think the Capitol equipment currently has a long layover in Washington so don't believe another set would be required. A 2.5 hour earlier departure from Washington would give a shorter connection time to those arriving from the Meteor/Crescent, or Norfolk/Lynchburg service. A 1pm Washington departure would result in about a 4pm departure from Phily. Just about like the Broadway. Schedule of 41/42 could be adjusted to spread out the train times.

If this were to occur, perhaps the Cardinal schedule could be made a daily train to Cincinnati as a result of eliminating the mileage from Cinci to CHI. (with Indiana picking up costs for a daily Hoosier State). If the Cardinal connected to 66/67, it could use Superliner equipment with perhaps a SSL serving as the cafe car and provide daytime service to all points (and maybe modified to provide a few BC seats). A thruway bus would take care of the handful of Cinci passengers going to Indianapolis and beyond. A daylight schedule would provide better times for a thruway connecting service from Huntington up to Columbus- 2 1/2 hrs (and perhaps over to Louisville - a straight shot on I-64 at just under 3 hours).

I guess the real point in this is that I would like Amtrak to show some innovation with their schedules and routes. Much talk, lots of plans, but nothing ever happens. But I guess that's the price we pay for it being a political animal.

 

[jis]

You mean what Amtrak used to do with the Broadway Washington Section before they reorganized things?

 

[Palmland]

You mean what Amtrak used to do with the Broadway Washington Section before they reorganized things?

Exactly. But did the Washington section ever go via Philadelphia. I know it used the Port road to Harrisburg. With the 100mph upgrade I suspect Phila routing wouldn't be that much longer.

 

[Eric S]

You mean what Amtrak used to do with the Broadway Washington Section before they reorganized things?

Exactly. But did the Washington section ever go via Philadelphia. I know it used the Port road to Harrisburg. With the 100mph upgrade I suspect Phila routing wouldn't be that much longer.

Yes, at one point it did run via Philadelphia. During that time, I believe the Broadway Limited's New York section skipped PHL station entirely, with the Washington section providing service to PHL. I can double-check a book or two at home later to try to nail down the timeline of when it ran which route. (Although, by then, perhaps someone else will chime in with the specific years.)

 

[jis]

You are correct. That was the operating pattern of the Pennsy pre A-Day, and Amtrak retained it initially.

Then they changed the pattern by sending the Washington section via Perryville - Harrisburg and the New York section via 30th St. with the join/cut happening at Harrisburg.

There may have been a period when the join/cut happened in Philly too, but I am not sure about that.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Didn't the Broadway Ltd. stop @ the North PHL Station instead of 30th St.?

 

[jis]

Yes. That was the PC stoppage pattern just before A-Day I believe, which Amtrak carried forward for some time.

 

[fulham]

The "original" Amtrak Broadway serviced N. Philly but not 30th Street. Then they started running the train backward from NYP to 30th Street and, I believe, changing to F40's at 30th Street for the trip to Chicago. That train used to have slumbercoach service, and on one of my trips, the slumbercoach was not available due to mice being found in the car at NYP. I believe the car was set out at Philadelphia and we picked up a 10-6 sleeper off the EB Broadway. On another trip we had no diner to Harrisburgh, and since I was in a sleeper we received a sandwich, chips and a pop, delivered to our room. In Harrisburgh we picked a diner still in Southern Railway paint. This must have been in the late 1970's right after the SR Crescent was taken over by Amtrak. I remember the SR diner was in great shape!

 

[Palmland]

You mean what Amtrak used to do with the Broadway Washington Section before they reorganized things?

Exactly. But did the Washington section ever go via Philadelphia. I know it used the Port road to Harrisburg. With the 100mph upgrade I suspect Phila routing wouldn't be that much longer.

Yes, at one point it did run via Philadelphia. During that time, I believe the Broadway Limited's New York section skipped PHL station entirely, with the Washington section providing service to PHL. I can double-check a book or two at home later to try to nail down the timeline of when it ran which route. (Although, by then, perhaps someone else will chime in with the specific years.)

I checked a few old Amtrak timetables I have ('71''73) and don't see the Washington section going via Phila. In 1973 it took about 3.5 hours to run the 140 miles direct via Perryville from Baltimore to Harrisburg.

Today, it's about 2'15" to Phila then 1'45" Phila to Harrisburg on the Pennsylvanian. Total time about 4 hours (only 30 min longer than the direct Perryville/Port Deposit route), yet it's about 75 more miles. Nothing like a high speed railroad.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I rode the Washington section of the Broadway Ltd in the summer of 1978. The train operated via Philadelphia 30th Strest and combined with the New York section in Harrisburg. . I also rode the Broadway in March,1973 from North Philadelphia to Chicago. At that time, the National Limited was operating from Washington direct to Harrisburg.

 

[MikefromCrete]

None of this has anything to do with the Hoosier State. There's a new thread for Chicago-East Coast service.

 

[jis]

Maybe Anderson or some other mod can weed out the Chicago East Coast stuff from here, which incidentally some of them participated in, and move them voer to the other thread. until that happens there is no way to stop the discussion continuing here, because many points made here are not going to be rewritten on the other thread. At least I won;t do so for the contribution that I made to this thread.

 

[Paulus]

Ok, to clarify:

Amtrak and PA were able to come to some strange agreement whereby the Pennsylvanian's costs (according to the funding formula in place) were not entirely borne by PA (unlike the rest of the state corridors) because of the through-car plan. My suggestion was that Amtrak would basically manage to declare the Pennsylvanian as part of the national system in its entirety, but only if PA would pick up a second daily train (which would also have at least some level of connection with one of the Capitol Limited frequencies I proposed). Basically, PA gets a long-term buy-one get-one with their trains (note that PA does seem to want a second frequency).

Can't do that without violating the law and ticking off every other state.

 

[Anderson]

Ok, to clarify:

Amtrak and PA were able to come to some strange agreement whereby the Pennsylvanian's costs (according to the funding formula in place) were not entirely borne by PA (unlike the rest of the state corridors) because of the through-car plan. My suggestion was that Amtrak would basically manage to declare the Pennsylvanian as part of the national system in its entirety, but only if PA would pick up a second daily train (which would also have at least some level of connection with one of the Capitol Limited frequencies I proposed). Basically, PA gets a long-term buy-one get-one with their trains (note that PA does seem to want a second frequency).

Can't do that without violating the law and ticking off every other state.

And what is the difference between what I described and operating a "New York section" of the Capitol Limited via the Pennsylvanian's route (or, for that matter, a revived Broadway presumably using the Cap's routing west of PGH)?

 

[Anderson]

Ok, I followed the path of least resistance and split a batch of page one off into another thread with the same name.

 

[Ryan]

Excellent. Lock or merge the other one in here too?

I have nothing to contribute other than it's been a fascinating discussion. Hopefully we'll at least see the through cars on the Pennsy sometime this decade.

 

[Paulus]

And what is the difference between what I described and operating a "New York section" of the Capitol Limited via the Pennsylvanian's route (or, for that matter, a revived Broadway presumably using the Cap's routing west of PGH)?

Because sections, as currently implemented, attach to other trains (in their entirety to my knowledge); I do believe that's the historical practice as well. Declaring the Pennsylvanian to be a section, while not actually treating it as such, would run afoul of the PRIAA requirements. A revived Broadway, similarly, would be an entirely different train which continues on to Chicago, not a second Pennsylvanian terminating in Pittsburgh.