NCDOT studies improving Amtrak service in NC

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Anderson said:
I was presuming that two trains would lay over at Asheville and one at Salisbury (or Charlotte) since doing that would allow you to have a WB train get in before mid-afternoon without having the first morning train leave at an obscene hour.

That being said, three sets for three round-trips on this route also feels a bit on the weak side in terms of equipment utilization - I'd expect that you could get four round-trips with three sets or do three r/t with two sets without too much trouble if you're ending at Salisbury. If you go to Charlotte, that's a bit trickier (and on the "spares" front, I presume that NC would ultimately have a larger equipment pool in play between this service, Wilmington, the Piedmont service, and anything else that proves to be interchangeable).
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They have to work around freight which seems to be around 9-10 pm when passing through Hickory westbound.

They may want to coordinate with the Crescent for the southbound Crescent which is 1:27 AM in the morning. The northbound is 6:17 AM for the Crescent and 7:28 for the Carolinian. With a Piedmont at 8:19 it would seem Amtrak not making all of those connections without some waiting but Asheville is a national tourist city so making the connections just work for NC residents is not the complete answer it would seem.
The view of The Loops is part of the appeal and an overnight train is not going to scratch that itch but it would help with the Crescent and Carolinian.
It is going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. Just so happy to be moving from mere speculation to "it just might happen."
 
Anderson said:
What I'm seeing on Google Maps is this:
View attachment 34902
It certainly looks like the station is on the south (Charlotte) side of the wye, and it also looks like there's an additional track that did go to the station (based on the odd placement of the platform [away from the station like that] implying a second track, and possibly a third, between the station and the current platform)? Or am I missing something? (This is not Virginia, so I can't speak with the sort of authority I could regarding WBG or CVS.)
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You are correct about being on the Charlotte side of the wye. And if you look at 2006 era image of the station there is a clearer view without the current cover that shows what must be a platform closer to the station.
NC DOT did state in a meeting I was at in person that another loading track would be going in for Salisbury and maybe Kannapolis as well. I am not sure if that was mentioned at the Train Host meeting last March or my training over the summer (or both.)
 
Anderson said:
I was presuming that two trains would lay over at Asheville and one at Salisbury (or Charlotte) or vice-versa since doing that would allow you to have a WB train get in before mid-afternoon without having the first morning train leave at an obscene hour.

That being said, three sets for three round-trips on this route also feels a bit on the weak side in terms of equipment utilization - I'd expect that you could get four round-trips with three sets or do three r/t with two sets without too much trouble if you're ending at Salisbury. If you go to Charlotte, that's a bit trickier (and on the "spares" front, I presume that NC would ultimately have a larger equipment pool in play between this service, Wilmington, the Piedmont service, and anything else that proves to be interchangeable). Something like 0700/1200/1700 for departure times at each end would be doable (giving about 90 minutes for recovery/turning at each end).

BTW, a practical logistical issue with the isolated train would be commissary operations. I'm pretty sure you can restock at Charlotte, but Salisbury or Asheville would be a bit redundant, operationally, there.
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Piedmont trains only have vending machines; I wouldn't think commissary would be much if a problem.
 
McLeansvilleAppFan said:
They have to work around freight which seems to be around 9-10 pm when passing through Hickory westbound.

They may want to coordinate with the Crescent for the southbound Crescent which is 1:27 AM in the morning. The northbound is 6:17 AM for the Crescent and 7:28 for the Carolinian. With a Piedmont at 8:19 it would seem Amtrak not making all of those connections without some waiting but Asheville is a national tourist city so making the connections just work for NC residents is not the complete answer it would seem.
The view of The Loops is part of the appeal and an overnight train is not going to scratch that itch but it would help with the Crescent and Carolinian.
It is going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. Just so happy to be moving from mere speculation to "it just might happen."
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I mean, if you've got two trains passing through the loops in daylight (presumably one midday in each direction, and then one other in each of the other directions, at least during the summer) I suspect that'd cover that. Jamming all three trains into daylight hours in December really isn't necessary for a successful overall service (indeed, a train going through "too early" EB to make connections to the Carolinian or early SEHSR train and going through "too late" WB to pick up connections for people coming from the NEC feels necessary), while telling folks from CLT to transfer after 40 minutes seems a bit capricious if the train isn't going east instead. If this was once a day, that would be a stronger point, but there are going to be a lot of folks taking the train as a way to get from A to B for whom the scenery is "nice but not absolutely necessary" and for whom the function of the schedule is more important.

By way of an analogy, the Adirondack passes through some absolutely magnificent scenery...but after taking it a number of times, I'd rather be able to make a better connection both ways at NYP if I'm taking it to Montreal and lose some of the scenery one way or the other on some trips. If I can have both, that's great, but sometimes "both" just doesn't work.

Having said that, if they're going to buy three sets for this, they should seriously consider discussing if there's some "improved scenery-viewing" car(s) they could get for one of the sets. Not a dome, but something more like the Sun Lounges that ran on the Florida trains perhaps?
 
Anderson said:
Having said that, if they're going to buy three sets for this, they should seriously consider discussing if there's some "improved scenery-viewing" car(s) they could get for one of the sets. Not a dome, but something more like the Sun Lounges that ran on the Florida trains perhaps?
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That makes me think. There are tunnels on this line. I wonder what the height clearance is compared to Baltimore and the other height restricted areas on the east coast.
 
Jack Kittle said:
Found an interesting map of NC rail lines at https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=352556db969240c99a06a179f56b8403

It shows lines and their current status along with crossings. Too bad it does not show tunnels!
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Looking on Google Earth you can find our where they are but not clearances. Though for some locations what looks like a tunnel could just be a more dense tree canopy that is obstructing the view of the tracks from the satellite.

I know someone that made the route in MS Train Simulator and it works in OpenRails. There was a small glitch in the graphics so he never released it but he gave me a copy and it shows the tunnels. And it shows the latitude and longitude if you set the program options correctly. Knowing this person I am sure the coordinates are pretty close to correct and could be cross referenced to Google Earth. That would still not give clearances but it would be more information.

A shame Google has not paid off Amtrak and or freight railroads to place a camera such as used on Google Street View on the front of a locomotive to record the images along the tracks. I know Google could serve some ads and pay for this with people watching just moving along the tracks. With a bit of geometry one might be able to determine tunnel heights with some of those images. I would eat that up.
 
The tunnels on the loops to Asheville were enlarged over the years. The longest, Swannanoa Tunnel, was done in 1963. You may be able to glean some idea of the loading gauge from the pictures of the construction here: The Form of Future Usefulness. Looks pretty tall.
In the past, such equipment as the "Big Boy" box cars and others have had to be circuitously routed to avoid these low, narrow clearances on the division. Work being done on the Asheville division will let our largest cars travel by the most direct routes to serve our customers better.
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The Southern ran a dome car to Asheville until 1975, say many sites, with pictures. Has stairs, but not super tall.

Swannanoa Tunnel cost a lot of convict lives and there is a song. Women convicts made the food. Historic American Buildings Survey, Swannanoa Tunnel, U.S. Route 70, Ridgecrest, Buncombe County, NC, from 1977, has this to say about the structure:
At present the Swannanoa Tunnel bears no resemblance to the original work, except in the fact that it occupies the same location. Over the years the tunnel has been enlarged several times to accomodate newer and larger locomotives. In 1963 the entire structure was reworked. New, concrete portals were added, and the interior was enlarged. None of the original work remains evident.
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The study submitted to FRA is on Scribd, maybe there is somewhere better: www.scribd.com/document/658657343/WNCReport-Draft-06162023-1. It compares travel times to Asheville by train, auto, and bus. The train beats the bus from SAL and RGH, but not from CLT. Included from CLT and RGH are 30 minutes to transfer at SAL. Undoutably the bus from Salisbury connects in Charlotte or wherever.
 
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So, I was musing over two of the rejected lines.

One was Greenville, NC - I agree with Greenville as a dubious destination, but I have to wonder if re-routing some trains via the east-west line there vs going into Selma-Smithfield might not make sense (especially since any east-west traffic would be covered via the run to Wilmington)?

The other was that Weldon project. Now, as I said before, Weldon as a terminus makes very little sense to me, but if there were going to be a plan to run Norfolk-Raleigh (whether just that or continuing onwards), I think going via the shiny new line to Norlina and then using a rebuilt line heading east from there to Weldon and then onwards to the east (via Franklin and then meeting up with the existing line around Suffolk) would probably make as much sense as anything. Also, a Weldon/Roanoke Rapids station makes sense - I believe it's over 90 miles from PTB to RMT, so an intermediate station probably makes sense on its own merits (and would probably have a native catchment area of a bit over 100,000 people - those areas aren't densely populated, but most counties seem to have 10-20k people and Halifax County is around 50k), albeit overlapping a little with Norlina, and a modest amount of interchange business isn't exactly improbable (since it'd be rather a better option for switching to go from Hampton Roads south than either Richmond or Petersburg).
 
Ashville history has a lot of confusion. The original Ashville airport was a prime example of not if I can. Only DC-3s could operate there and only one way in and out that same direction. Rail transportation at that time was very heavy especially from the Midwest and Northeast. Many private cars over the seasons especially summer weather. The newer Ashville airport is much better but still has some operational problems in marginal weather. But it does not have good reputation even now.

Apparently, the Ashville tourist bureau is pushing for more persons to ideal places especially to Biltmore estates. With that in mind it would appear that with present trackage Ashville - Salisbury to connect or continue on to northern locations would be the correct routing. Winston Salem is out unless that route can be fixed and upgraded.

Now CLT in the past. Just a wide place in road till the banks all moved in. Now IMO it is close to the population center of NC. Is there demand from CLT (maybe CLT airport) <> Ashville. Have no idea. Now what is the route to follow? Newton, Catawba, Barber, or Salisbury / to CLT`? Leave it to the pros and how much money and how much time to save?
 
west point said:
Ashville history has a lot of confusion. The original Ashville airport was a prime example of not if I can. Only DC-3s could operate there and only one way in and out that same direction. Rail transportation at that time was very heavy especially from the Midwest and Northeast. Many private cars over the seasons especially summer weather. The newer Ashville airport is much better but still has some operational problems in marginal weather. But it does not have good reputation even now.

Apparently, the Ashville tourist bureau is pushing for more persons to ideal places especially to Biltmore estates. With that in mind it would appear that with present trackage Ashville - Salisbury to connect or continue on to northern locations would be the correct routing. Winston Salem is out unless that route can be fixed and upgraded.

Now CLT in the past. Just a wide place in road till the banks all moved in. Now IMO it is close to the population center of NC. Is there demand from CLT (maybe CLT airport) <> Ashville. Have no idea. Now what is the route to follow? Newton, Catawba, Barber, or Salisbury / to CLT`? Leave it to the pros and how much money and how much time to save?
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Wake County with Raleigh and Cary (growing like a weed) and Durham nearby is pushing the population center east.
CSX out of Charlotte could have a connection to the AS line in Marion built but it does not exist now pointing the way needed and I think there is some property at the junction that might be in the way. It could be bought but that could mean a lawsuit and it certainly means $ for the land and the tracks. And that means dealing with CSX and NS. I get the impression that no one wants to deal with CSX on passenger rail in NC.
Running up to Catawba could be done and still not miss the largest population area between Charlotte and Asheville, which is Catawba County. That would use a bit of CSX track. I am not sure how much work would be needed on the rail in the ground.


There are options but I am just not convinced that making any option ( and in theory there are a few) that makes the time from Charlotte to Asheville less is going to make it a shorter time to make a big difference but it will make a big difference in attracting riders from the Triad and Triangle area. It may or may not make a difference from points outside of the state. And I am not sure a CSX routing to Marion would be quicker as it is up to Lincolnton and down to Shelby and then back up to Marion. Far from a straight shot.
 
I just read in this mornings Greensboro News and Record an ad from the NC DOT about a grade crossing at Hilltop Road in Greensboro. This is a pretty busy road and likely more about auto safety but that also means rail safety of course and likely it will save 3- seconds or so on a train trip. Project is STIP Project-P-5713
 

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