New AGR vs. Old AGR

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printman2000

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Okay, have a trip next year (2016). It will cost us 60,000 points under the old system for two roomettes roundtrip.

Using the points estimator on the AGR site, I can get this trip for only 49,404 points.

My concern is that something will change and the actual points prices will be different than the "estimator".

Can I book the trip now under the old system, then, if the new system is actually cheaper, cancel and rebook without penalty?

Under the new system, there are penalties for canceling and I am unsure if the old system of no penalties will still be honored on an old system reservation.

Hope that is clear.
 
https://agr.amtrak.com/rideon/

Q: What about my reward trip that I have already reserved?

A: The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date.

$$$$$$$$$$$$

Sounds like after Jan 24 the modification/cancellation rules will be the new ones even if booked before that date.
 
My concern is that something will change and the actual points prices will be different than the "estimator".
Not to mention the revenue prices themselves are likely to change over time, potentially rising by a substantial amount. In that case even if the points estimator is entirely correct on a points per dollar basis you could still end up spending more than what it currently estimates through no fault of the estimator itself. My rule of thumb is that unless your future trip makes no sense under the current system, presumably because it's so short and cheap that isn't ecomoical to spend even a single zone's worth of points, it's probably best to book under the current system.
 
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Sounds like after Jan 24 the modification/cancellation rules will be the new ones even if booked before that date.
Highly unlikely (and probably illegal).
How would it be illegal? The thing that a lot of people don't get about loyalty programs is that the terms are not guaranteed. They're giving plenty of notice and theoretically wouldn't have to give any.

https://amtrakguestrewards.com/info/terms

Amtrak may, in its discretion, cancel, modify, restrict, or terminate the Program or any aspects or features of the Program at any time without prior notice.

While they don't say it outright, the wording strongly suggests that one can book under the old system, but that modification and cancellation terms will change to the new ones (i.e. the 10% penalty) on Jan 24. Or perhaps there's a different interpretation for "unless modified or canceled on or after this date".

https://amtrakguestrewards.com/info/2016redemptionguidelines
 
I just got off the phone with Guest Rewards and agent Judy clarified that the change penalties beginning Jan 24th apply to all reservations regardless of when they were made. 10% plus an additional 10% if change is within 14 days of departure.
It's still unclear what the penalty really is. The wording of the new rules seems to be that a 10% penalty will be assessed on any points due back to the member, but that if additional points are due to Amtrak, then there is no penalty.

The 10% "close-in" penalty is also 24 hours if it's not a sleeper. It's still unclear what would be the points basis for that. I was thinking it could be based on the entire booking, the value of the segment(s) modified, or maybe something else.
 
Sounds like after Jan 24 the modification/cancellation rules will be the new ones even if booked before that date.
Highly unlikely (and probably illegal).
How would it be illegal? The thing that a lot of people don't get about loyalty programs is that the terms are not guaranteed. They're giving plenty of notice and theoretically wouldn't have to give any.

https://amtrakguestrewards.com/info/terms

Amtrak may, in its discretion, cancel, modify, restrict, or terminate the Program or any aspects or features of the Program at any time without prior notice.

While they don't say it outright, the wording strongly suggests that one can book under the old system, but that modification and cancellation terms will change to the new ones (i.e. the 10% penalty) on Jan 24. Or perhaps there's a different interpretation for "unless modified or canceled on or after this date".

https://amtrakguestrewards.com/info/2016redemptionguidelines
Of course, AGR is free to change the terms for any future bookings, just as they're free to change the price tag - and they're doing both next month. But if you book a trip for next summer today, under today's pricing system and today's cancellation policy, AGR can't unilaterally apply a new cancellation policy (any more than they could yank extra points out of your account because the price of your trip went up in the new system).

Now, perhaps AGR has already changed the cancellation policy for trips after January 24, in which case you'd be out of luck if you book your ticket today. But they certainly hadn't changed the cancellation policy back in March, when I called to make an AGR reservation and explicitly asked about the cancellation policy, and was told that I'd get a full refund if I canceled before the it began. My trip was in May (and I didn't cancel it), but had it been in February, AGR would have been bound by the cancellation policy in effect at the time I booked my ticket, as relayed to me by the AGR agent.

Think about it this way. If you buy a widget from a store with a prominently posted 90-day return policy, and a week later the store cuts that back to a 30-day return policy, they can't legitimately deny your return 60 days later. Not only didn't you agree to the new policy, you possibly didn't even know about it (just as someone who booked a ticket in March for next February might have no idea that the AGR program is changing in January - not everybody follows this stuff as closely as we do).
 
Of course, AGR is free to change the terms for any future bookings, just as they're free to change the price tag - and they're doing both next month. But if you book a trip for next summer today, under today's pricing system and today's cancellation policy, AGR can't unilaterally apply a new cancellation policy (any more than they could yank extra points out of your account because the price of your trip went up in the new system).

Now, perhaps AGR has already changed the cancellation policy for trips after January 24, in which case you'd be out of luck if you book your ticket today. But they certainly hadn't changed the cancellation policy back in March, when I called to make an AGR reservation and explicitly asked about the cancellation policy, and was told that I'd get a full refund if I canceled before the it began. My trip was in May (and I didn't cancel it), but had it been in February, AGR would have been bound by the cancellation policy in effect at the time I booked my ticket, as relayed to me by the AGR agent.
That wasn't the question. The question was about doing so when the terms are already out there, which were made available in late August.

However, I'm not so sure that they're going to honor the previous cancellation terms if a booking for this March was made perhaps last June. There are a lot of things that can be odd, such as someone purchasing a membership in a fitness club chain because there's a convenient location nearby, but then they close that location during the membership term. I'm not sure that AGR agents are going to be able to handle dealing with two different cancellation policies once Jan 24 rolls around. Perhaps there's some manual tweaks that an agent (or supervisor) can do.
 
That wasn't the question. The question was about doing so when the terms are already out there, which were made available in late August.

However, I'm not so sure that they're going to honor the previous cancellation terms if a booking for this March was made perhaps last June. There are a lot of things that can be odd, such as someone purchasing a membership in a fitness club chain because there's a convenient location nearby, but then they close that location during the membership term. I'm not sure that AGR agents are going to be able to handle dealing with two different cancellation policies once Jan 24 rolls around. Perhaps there's some manual tweaks that an agent (or supervisor) can do.
There are two sets of terms out there now: one set effective through January 23, 2016, and another set effective after that date. If you book a ticket at any point through January 23, the old set applies. If you wait until January 24 or later to book (or if you modify a reservation made under the old set), the new set applies. The new terms are simply not relevant to anybody reserving tickets before that date.

The current terms are a bit weasely: "Amtrak travel reward trips may be modified or canceled if applicable. Points will not be refunded if the redemption trip is not cancelled prior to the time of departure ("no-show"). All modifications to redemption trips are subject to availability and Point/monetary penalty. Cancellations of redemption travel are subject to applicable point penalty." Yet I don't see the penalty defined anywhere. So perhaps the current policy allows for whatever penalty AGR wishes to charge (kind of like this), but AGR has been generous up until now in opting to not charge one. But that certainly isn't what my agent told me in March!

Incidentally, these two sentences in the new terms are contradictory: "The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date." Drop the words "or canceled" and they no longer contradict. But with those words, the first sentence agrees with me and the second agrees with you.

Every fitness club chain spells out in its terms what happens if a branch closes. And fitness clubs are welcome to change their terms for new membership and for renewals, but they can't impose more restrictive terms on memberships that are already under way.

AGR's technical issues are AGR's problem, not the customer's. If the customer is entitled to a full refund (because an AGR agent confirmed that he'd be entitled to a full refund if he canceled his trip), then it's on AGR to find a way to provide a full refund.
 
Incidentally, these two sentences in the new terms are contradictory: "The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date." Drop the words "or canceled" and they no longer contradict. But with those words, the first sentence agrees with me and the second agrees with you.

Every fitness club chain spells out in its terms what happens if a branch closes. And fitness clubs are welcome to change their terms for new membership and for renewals, but they can't impose more restrictive terms on memberships that are already under way.

AGR's technical issues are AGR's problem, not the customer's. If the customer is entitled to a full refund (because an AGR agent confirmed that he'd be entitled to a full refund if he canceled his trip), then it's on AGR to find a way to provide a full refund.
They're talking about the difference between the program rules (what it costs to earn/redeerm) and cancellation/modification rules.

As I noted, there are a lot of things that change, and I'm not quite sure that anyone is really going to grandfather the rules. For instance, United Club changed their rules to that saying that after a certain date that one is required to show a ticket for travel. However, there are those who purchased/renewed their memberships before the announcement. I'm guessing United still feels they're subject to those rules. One with a membership used to be able to get a pass to get through security, but now it probably wouldn't make any sense. This may even affect some AGR members who might be able to get past security on a gate pass to accompany someone else, but then decide to visit a United Club before leaving.
 
To paraphrase Zach from The Big Bang Theory (who was talking about science rather than Amtrak): "That's what I like about Amtrak--there is no one right answer."
 
I suppose we really won't know until someone actually tries it. I also suspect that if anyone manages to suffer a penalty on an AGR redemption reserved before the , that it could be overridden or perhaps restored at the discretion of a supervisor.

At this point it doesn't sound as if anyone really knows what's going on.
 
Incidentally, these two sentences in the new terms are contradictory: "The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date." Drop the words "or canceled" and they no longer contradict. But with those words, the first sentence agrees with me and the second agrees with you.

Every fitness club chain spells out in its terms what happens if a branch closes. And fitness clubs are welcome to change their terms for new membership and for renewals, but they can't impose more restrictive terms on memberships that are already under way.

AGR's technical issues are AGR's problem, not the customer's. If the customer is entitled to a full refund (because an AGR agent confirmed that he'd be entitled to a full refund if he canceled his trip), then it's on AGR to find a way to provide a full refund.
They're talking about the difference between the program rules (what it costs to earn/redeerm) and cancellation/modification rules.

As I noted, there are a lot of things that change, and I'm not quite sure that anyone is really going to grandfather the rules. For instance, United Club changed their rules to that saying that after a certain date that one is required to show a ticket for travel. However, there are those who purchased/renewed their memberships before the announcement. I'm guessing United still feels they're subject to those rules. One with a membership used to be able to get a pass to get through security, but now it probably wouldn't make any sense. This may even affect some AGR members who might be able to get past security on a gate pass to accompany someone else, but then decide to visit a United Club before leaving.
The cancellation/modification policy is part of the program rules. The cancellation/refund policy is always determined by when the purchase is made, because that's when the purchaser agrees to the terms. The terms can't be changed after that point without the purchaser's consent, and simply waiting for January 23 to come and go cannot be construed as consent.

This isn't a question of grandfathering. This is a question of simply honoring the terms that Amtrak and the traveler mutually agreed to when the purchase was made.

For some people, a generous cancellation policy is important. Somebody who books a ticket because of a generous cancellation policy has every right to expect that full cancellation policy to be upheld; otherwise, he might have booked a Flexible fare in cash or flown Southwest (which also has a generous cancellation policy for redemptions and a generous change policy for everyone).

Well that muddies the water.
Not at all - it confirms what I've been saying all along. If you book a trip today, today's cancellation policy applies. If you book a trip on or after January 24, the new cancellation policy applies.
 
When Amtrak imposed a new and stricter cancellation and refund policy for paid reservations on March 1, 2014, the policy was applied to all reservations, including those made prior to the change. It would not surprise me if that was the case here as well. I certainly do not see anything from Amtrak that says that existing reservations will not be subject to the penalties.
 
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I agree with Bill, Amtrak and AGR, as with all Loyalty programs, are under no obligation to honor pre-exisiting rules and regulations. As the saying goes, everything is subject to change without notice!
 
Well that muddies the water.
Not at all - it confirms what I've been saying all along. If you book a trip today, today's cancellation policy applies. If you book a trip on or after January 24, the new cancellation policy applies.
Again, that seems to be your interpretation. Amtrak's written policy is pretty clear that there will be something different in the cancellation/modification policy regardless of when the reservation was made. At the very least it would be legally defensible given that the policy change was announced last August.
 
From the AGR website, seems pretty clear...

Q: What about my reward trip that I have already reserved?

A: The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date.

http://agr.amtrak.com/rideon/
 
I agree with Bill, Amtrak and AGR, as with all Loyalty programs, are under no obligation to honor pre-exisiting rules and regulations. As the saying goes, everything is subject to change without notice!
To AGR's credit, that have given lots of notice with these changes.
 
From the AGR website, seems pretty clear...

Q: What about my reward trip that I have already reserved?

A: The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date.

http://agr.amtrak.com/rideon/
I don't this this helps with this disagreement. I think the question is, "I made my rezzy under the OLD system, (and in theory, "terms and conditions") but what if I MODIFY or CANCEL after January 24th......."
 
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