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New Amtrak Moynihan train hall at NYP

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John Santos

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Well nobody would have to keep track of it, the exiting passengers would exit from one side, and after they had exited the conductor would open the doors on the opposite side to allow the passengers already on the platform the chance to board.

It wasn’t an overly realistic suggestion... just a “yes and” blue sky idea.

Again.. how much time does constant tension catenary save? Everything costs money!
You liked my reply so you must have realized my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek :) The two platform arrangement would be a good idea in a location with plenty of room and enough passengers to justify it.

I think constant tension allows much higher speed without arcing which is why they do it, but my only "personal" knowledge is my great grandfather who was a broom man* for a small city trolley about 120 years ago.

[*] I think that's what his job was called, but I couldn't find an online reference. He rode at the back of the streetcar, collected fares and reconnected the trolley pole ("broom") to the wire whenever needed, which was often.
 

crescent-zephyr

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You liked my reply so you must have realized my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek :) The two platform arrangement would be a good idea in a location with plenty of room and enough passengers to justify it.

I think constant tension allows much higher speed without arcing which is why they do it, but my only "personal" knowledge is my great grandfather who was a broom man* for a small city trolley about 120 years ago.

[*] I think that's what his job was called, but I couldn't find an online reference. He rode at the back of the streetcar, collected fares and reconnected the trolley pole ("broom") to the wire whenever needed, which was often.
That would have been the conductor! The conductor rode the back and the motorman was in the front... and actually that goes right back to the dual platforms. Passengers would enter and pay at the rear of the car, and passengers would exit at the front by the motorman!

I ran a trolley for a summer at a tourist railroad... you learn exactly where you can go what speed to keep the pole on the wire! Ha.
 

jis

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railiner

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crescent-zephyr

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Apparently at least one life was lost in the pursuit of the Moynihan Train Hall...

While that’s certainly sad, it sounds like he suffered from paranoia in both his work and personal life. I can’t imagine any major construction job doesn’t come with pressure and deadlines, that’s part of the business.
 

Devil's Advocate

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Yes some of it is padding time, but the narrow platforms is most of the reason why Northeast Regionals have a 15 minute layover in NYP. I am interested in this plan to narrow the columns on the platforms:
I agree that the platforms would be far more functional if they had not been turned into a (de)basement for MSG. 👍

Again.. how much time does constant tension catenary save? Everything costs money!
How much of a speed benefit did they actually get out of that? I realize that real HSR on straight track needs constant tension but on a relatively slow and meandering route like the NEC maybe it doesn't matter so much. I guess the main benefit is that it replaces rapidly deteriorating infrastructure from the 1950's? 🤔

Apparently at least one life was lost in the pursuit of the Moynihan Train Hall.
Breaking News: New York Post writes nine month old story to bash governor and stain public works project. :rolleyes:
 
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jis

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How much of a speed benefit did they actually get out of that? I realize that real HSR on straight track needs constant tension but on a relatively slow and meandering route like the NEC maybe it doesn't matter so much. I guess the main benefit is that it replaces rapidly deteriorating infrastructure from the 1950's? 🤔
Metro North, NYSDOT and ConnDOT have converted the Metro North segment of the NEC to all Constant Tension. Basically, North (East) of New York it is Constant Tension all the way to Boston, except for NYP to what used to be CP Shell..

Meanwhile there has been endless discussions and failures to act to update the catenary south of New York, while people spend lots of money studying why one should not convert the catenary to world standard, instead of figuring out how to achieve that cost effectively. What transpired with the $450 Million given to Amtrak for the 16 miles of railroad and how it was wasted and frittered away is a monument to why nothing good will really happen on the NEC, without it costing twice or more of what it would cost almost anywhere else, unless Amtrak is able to change its ways. Well, among other misuse, at least a senior Engineer on the project managed to get his book published on our backs, using money from the funds to hire a secretary whose only job apparently was editing the manuscript for his book, while he proceeded to mismanage the project into ground.

Breaking News: New York Post writes nine month old story to bash governor and stain public works project. :rolleyes:
NY Post's attempt to somehow tie it into the Governor stretches credulity beyond the breaking point, which is not unusual for that outfit.

While that’s certainly sad, it sounds like he suffered from paranoia in both his work and personal life. I can’t imagine any major construction job doesn’t come with pressure and deadlines, that’s part of the business.
Clearly he had other issues.
 
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Devil's Advocate

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Meanwhile there has been endless discussions and failures to act to update the catenary south of New York, while people spend lots of money studying why one should not convert the catenary to world standard, instead of figuring out how to achieve that cost effectively.
This is an excellent point.

A big part of what made China's HSR revolution practical was the creation of high volume building methods that leveraged economies of scale rather than bespoke solutions. This is also part of the story that often gets lost in discussions about the potential benefits of a company like The Boring Company achieving commercial success. Although forever married to hyperloop theory the main benefit would be establishing a more standardized and simpified approach to volume tunneling that could keep staff and hardware operating on a year round schedule.

Or at least that is my understanding.
 
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adamj023

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Which tracks will be accessible from the theatre in MSG which will be turned into another train hall? Looks like project will be funded in the next administration.
 

adamj023

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No its a new concourse by where the MSG theatre is now with a brand new entrance. It should be accessible to most of the tracks, don’t know if all. It is located at MSG right now where the Theatre is and is part of the MSG structure itself. It makes sense as more people use the trains than use the theatre which can be built elsewhere for the future. The Empire Station complex is not related to this.


This is the outside of it.

This is what it looks like now:


 
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joelkfla

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No its a new concourse by where the MSG theatre is now with a brand new entrance. It should be accessible to most of the tracks, don’t know if all. It is located at MSG right now where the Theatre is and is part of the MSG structure itself. It makes sense as more people use the trains than use the theatre which can be built elsewhere for the future. The Empire Station complex is not related to this.


This is the outside of it.

This is what it looks like now:


But that was 5 years ago, and it was just one of "several options."

Searching "Penn Station Hulu Theater", the only more recent reference I could find was that Cuomo mentioned it in a Jan. 2020 luncheon to business leaders. De Blasio said he knew nothing about it.

I think it's just a Cuomo pipe dream. From a practical standpoint, it seems rather redundant to Moynihan.
 

PVD

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With MSG controlling both Radio City Music Hall (6000 seats) and the Beacon Theater (just under 3000), their ability to schedule shows that don't need an arena size venue are pretty good. The Theater (5600) is less important than it used to be. Not a bad place at all, way better than the original "Felt Forum" that it replaced, that was pretty much of a dump, and no where near as suitable for a show.
 

adamj023

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But that was 5 years ago, and it was just one of "several options."

Searching "Penn Station Hulu Theater", the only more recent reference I could find was that Cuomo mentioned it in a Jan. 2020 luncheon to business leaders. De Blasio said he knew nothing about it.

I think it's just a Cuomo pipe dream. From a practical standpoint, it seems rather redundant to Moynihan.
Not a pipe dream. Cuomo already gave his plans in his recent speech on infrastructure in the last speech which will be approved. The incoming administration will sign on to the Gateway project as well as others including this. Penn Station was at overcapacity for years. I just disagree with the government’s approach and taxation.


The project is mentioned on that page.
 
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west point

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Cuomo's plan for the Penn south expansion was just announced. I have hoped it would have started sooner. However for starters it will only benefit NJ Transit. The proposed wider platforms will also be longer so maybe NJ Transit will operate longer trains. Use by Amtrak is very limited until the proposed East river tunnels 5 and 6 re built. Stub end tracks just do not help Amtrak with almost all its trains going either thru to Bos or SSY.
 

PVD

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They are helped indirectly, if there are added tracks for NJT, trains that currently use tracks that do go through can relocate. Could probably serve some Keystones. I am curious if the new tracks would have access to the Empire Connection, this would allow their use by MNRR at some point in the (probably distant) future.
 

railiner

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I think he's talking about the Empire Station Complex master plan? If approved and completed it would be quite extensive, not just in terms new and expanded tracks but also redevelopment above ground as well.

Funny...they are proposing a pedestrian corridor linking the station with the Herald Square subway/PATH station....
For many years such a passageway existed, utilizing private property thru the former Gimbels Dept. Store basement along 33rd Street, until it became unusable due to homeless encroachment, and was sealed off...
 

adamj023

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My own belief is that the railroads should be privatized and private equity should dictate how funds are spent. Government control and increasing taxation is the wrong approach. I am all for fare increases, and more ways to monetize the system. Plenty of people now pay taxes which go into these projects which they do not use.
 

crescent-zephyr

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My own belief is that the railroads should be privatized and private equity should dictate how funds are spent. Government control and increasing taxation is the wrong approach. I am all for fare increases, and more ways to monetize the system. Plenty of people now pay taxes which go into these projects which they do not use.
You can believe that all you want, but it’s not how this country operates any other transit infrastructure including airports, sea ports, interstates, state highways, county roads, etc.
 

IndyLions

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My own belief is that the railroads should be privatized and private equity should dictate how funds are spent. Government control and increasing taxation is the wrong approach. I am all for fare increases, and more ways to monetize the system. Plenty of people now pay taxes which go into these projects which they do not use.
And what happens during the first crisis - which will undoubtedly raise its ugly head within 7-10 years? Why, the private corporation shuts down of course. No sense in operating the transportation network when it is inconvenient.

Nobody says governments are efficient - far from it. But transportation is INFRASTRUCTURE - and other than fulfilling government contracts - private businesses have no place in infrastructure.
 

adamj023

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You can believe that all you want, but it’s not how this country operates any other transit infrastructure including airports, sea ports, interstates, state highways, county roads, etc.
There is a lot of corruption inside the government process leading to higher costs and expenses. Railroads used to be private entities which the government assumed control of. I am in favor of free marker capitalism for railroads which we had before Amtrak took it over.
 

jis

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crescent-zephyr

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There is a lot of corruption inside the government process leading to higher costs and expenses. Railroads used to be private entities which the government assumed control of. I am in favor of free marker capitalism for railroads which we had before Amtrak took it over.
So the railroads should be treated differently than all other forms of transportation?
 
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