New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

[JRR]

The Congressional mandate is to end food and beverage losses.

This plan would do nothing to cut costs (you're still paying for staff) and reduce revenue by serving few meals. Wrong direction.

Ryan: I think you and I have talked around this before but the revenue is not reduced by serving fewer meals. All the meals have been paid for (revenue collected), when you bought the sleeper ticket. No revenue is collected when you eat the meal other than possibly additional beer, wine or liquor.

The question remains, how much of the sleeper ticket cost is being allocated to F&B revenue?

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

Didn’t they first implement “contemporary” dining in early 2018? We’re coming up on two years of that on the Capitol Limited and LSL very soon here... I’d be really interested to see what their figures for the past year look like.

 

[lordsigma]

Didn’t they first implement “contemporary” dining in early 2018? We’re coming up on two years of that on the Capitol Limited and LSL very soon here... I’d be really interested to see what their figures for the past year look like.

It’s tricky though as the dining program has morphed several times since it started:

Version 1) all chilled meals and breakfast sugary box meal.

Version 2) one chilled item replaced with a red wine braised short ribs option.

Version 3) menu changed to one chilled option and 1 vegetarian option and two hot options. Breakfast box replaced with continental breakfasts

Version 4) current version. Boxes replaced with reusable trays, entree items changed to all hot options.

I think we need a couple solid years after version 3 started to know the acceptance.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

To be fair Amtrak has been changing dining car operations for decades. I remember about 15 years ago Amtrak drastically cut dining car staff and went to “simplified dining” which meant all pre-prepared items, no China and glassware, and staggered seatings. That was the day of the “Bob Evans breakfast scramble.”

They realized that with the staggered seatings, 1 chef could handle a few cooked to order items and they brought back scrambled eggs, steaks, etc.

They brought back full dining on premier trains - the starlight, empire builder and the Capitol. These trains used the glassware and ceramic plates. Also around this time they had the “chef inspired” meals like the lamb shank, Mahi Mahi, crab cakes, etc. which I thought were excellent.

About 10 years ago they announced the cross country cafe concept for the city of New Orleans and Texas Eagle. Single food service car that would offer “all day dining” with additional entrees available at specific meal times. This concept basically combined cafe car, dining car take out, and sit down dining into 1 food service car. It lasted less than a year I think until they just started using the ccc cars as traditional dining cars.

And then the city of New Orleans was the first to try “contemporary dining” - they just didn’t call it that. But the food quality and service model (only 1 server, everything pre made and poor quality) was the same.

So here we are....

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Also around this time they had the “chef inspired” meals like the lamb shank, Mahi Mahi, crab cakes, etc. which I thought were excellent.

The "chef inspired" era was the modern heyday of Amtrak dining IMO. It wasn't perfect but it was good enough that I had nothing to worry or complain about. The only thing I can remember wanting was a bit more variety for frequent travelers. Crazy to think it wasn't even that long ago, in the grand scheme of things, but it feels like ages now.

 

[printman2000]

How does the unlimited soft drinks work with Flexible Dining? Do you have to go to the dining car and request it each time from the LSA? Is a water bottle an option?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

How does the unlimited soft drinks work with Flexible Dining? Do you have to go to the dining car and request it each time from the LSA? Is a water bottle an option?

In my experience on the meteor you could request drinks from the lsa or my sca would sometimes ask me “I’m headed to the diner to pick up some dinners can I get you anything to drink?” - she was excellent, I wouldn’t always expect that.

The lsa in my experience either acted too busy making food, or was annoyed that I asked her to get up when she was sitting at the booth.

Yes bottled water is an option, also sparkling water. Was lacroix but now it’s dasani sparkling water I think.

 

[printman2000]

In my experience on the meteor you could request drinks from the lsa or my sca would sometimes ask me “I’m headed to the diner to pick up some dinners can I get you anything to drink?” - she was excellent, I wouldn’t always expect that.

The lsa in my experience either acted too busy making food, or was annoyed that I asked her to get up when she was sitting at the booth.

Yes bottled water is an option, also sparkling water. Was lacroix but now it’s dasani sparkling water I think.

Thanks for the info. Bad crew attitude is something I have come to expect. Then when I get someone great, it is a bonus.

 

[pennyk]

How does the unlimited soft drinks work with Flexible Dining? Do you have to go to the dining car and request it each time from the LSA? Is a water bottle an option?

When on the Silver Meteor and Capitol Limited I had no problems getting ice tea from the LSA between meals

 

[JCTakoma]

Today we made the sad decision to discontinue regular travel on long-distance trains. We’ve been taking the Crescent sleeper service for the past 4 years every year in December, sometimes more often.

In December this year, we’ll be traveling first-class air instead. Deciding factor was the dining experience. Engaging with staff and passengers in a full-service diner made Amtrak’s long distance trains special. Without that special factor, there’s simply not much there. Meanwhile, first-class air service, coupled with access to an airport lounge and TSA-Pre, is actually pretty darn nice.

Either of the following would entice us back to trains:

1. Overnight sleeper on a modern, high-speed train, with arrivals lounge/shower, at a price comparable to first-class air.

2. Elegant first-class dining plus a cocktail lounge on a modern, high-speed day train at a price comparable to first-class air.

We do have one last train trip booked in May from Seattle via Chicago to Washington, DC. We’ll give it some more thought at that time. But we’re buying the December air tickets next week, as soon as they become available. Sorry!

 

[lordsigma]

Today we made the sad decision to discontinue regular travel on long-distance trains. We’ve been taking the Crescent sleeper service for the past 4 years every year in December, sometimes more often.

In December this year, we’ll be traveling first-class air instead. Deciding factor was the dining experience. Engaging with staff and passengers in a full-service diner made Amtrak’s long distance trains special. Without that special factor, there’s simply not much there. Meanwhile, first-class air service, coupled with access to an airport lounge and TSA-Pre, is actually pretty darn nice.

Either of the following would entice us back to trains:

1. Overnight sleeper on a modern, high-speed train, with arrivals lounge/shower, at a price comparable to first-class air.

2. Elegant first-class dining plus a cocktail lounge on a modern, high-speed day train at a price comparable to first-class air.

We do have one last train trip booked in May from Seattle via Chicago to Washington, DC. We’ll give it some more thought at that time. But we’re buying the December air tickets next week, as soon as they become available. Sorry!

Obviously that's your prerogative if you otherwise prefer flying absent the meals and the change is definitely disappointing. However for me there is a lot more to rail travel than food. The diner is nice and I do enjoy meeting people, but I never found the food spectacular I guess found it acceptable so for me that isn't going to change the experience much on a single night trip. (I am 33 and have only traveling by train for a few years so I didn't experience the good days of dining cars.) Obviously such a cut to a two night train would be a different story. I'll still go to the diner and try to meet some folks using it as a lounge. I enjoy watching the world go by both at day and night out my sleeper window - to me travel by train is more of an adventure while I have always detested flying, but it's obviously a personal preference thing. I actually enjoy traveling by train - for me flying is just something that has to be put up with to get somewhere quickly so unless I absolutely need to get there quick it's always an easy choice. Obviously there's a lot of people that love to fly so I'm by no means the norm.

If your reasoning is the flex dining there isn't any reason to avoid the Auto Train or the western trains where the status quo remains.

 

[drfonta]

Obviously that's your prerogative if you otherwise prefer flying absent the meals and the change is definitely disappointing. However for me there is a lot more to rail travel than food. The diner is nice and I do enjoy meeting people, but I never found the food spectacular I guess found it acceptable so for me that isn't going to change the experience much on a single night trip. (I am 33 and have only traveling by train for a few years so I didn't experience the good days of dining cars.) Obviously such a cut to a two night train would be a different story. I'll still go to the diner and try to meet some folks using it as a lounge. I enjoy watching the world go by both at day and night out my sleeper window - to me travel by train is more of an adventure while I have always detested flying, but it's obviously a personal preference thing. I actually enjoy traveling by train - for me flying is just something that has to be put up with to get somewhere quickly so unless I absolutely need to get there quick it's always an easy choice. Obviously there's a lot of people that love to fly so I'm by no means the norm.

If your reasoning is the flex dining there isn't any reason to avoid the Auto Train or the western trains where the status quo remains.

I agree. I fly quite a bit to and from Asia, and I try to do business as much as possible and love the lounge options etc. These are 12-14 hour trips so that's somewhat comparable. Now, domestic first class is another animal completely (unless you happen to get a route that offers lie flat seating etc). I wouldn't even think to compare LD trains vs domestic FC. Two different animals with advantages to each. I'm doing my upcoming trip as a matter of enjoyment/leisure. Could definitely do round trip NY-FL first class for the price of a one way roomette but again this is for "fun of it" honestly. The move to flex dining does make a difference though, and I'll certainly see what it's like, but it's not enough of show stopper for me anyway. And I do look forward to trying out the 2 nighter routes in the future. Anyway, just my .02.

 

[Rasputin]

Today we made the sad decision to discontinue regular travel on long-distance trains. We’ve been taking the Crescent sleeper service for the past 4 years every year in December, sometimes more often.

Last May as sleeping car passengers on the Crescent between DC and New Orleans we had delicious steak dinners both evenings as well as a nice breakfast and lunch. At one stop I enjoyed chatting with the chef or cook or whatever they are called (I guess they are now called unemployed).

In May 2021 we expect to be back in New Orleans but after experiencing the contempt dining on the Lake Shore last May we have no plans to return from New Orleans on the Crescent and will probably fly back. (I very much enjoy the scenery in western Massachusetts and New York on the westbound Lake Shore.)

We enjoy travelling on the western trains and will continue to do so as long as decent service continues. We will likely continue to sometimes travel on the westbound Lake Shore simply as the convenient way to connect to the western trains but I expect that we will fly back more often.

As a sleeping car passenger, the eastern Amtrak trains are no longer a good value. The Regional trains and Acela trains are well run and we will continue to travel on them as they are a good value as are the western Amtrak trains.

 

[drfonta]

Last May as sleeping car passengers on the Crescent between DC and New Orleans we had delicious steak dinners both evenings as well as a nice breakfast and lunch. At one stop I enjoyed chatting with the chef or cook or whatever they are called (I guess they are now called unemployed).

In May 2021 we expect to be back in New Orleans but after experiencing the contempt dining on the Lake Shore last May we have no plans to return from New Orleans on the Crescent and will probably fly back. (I very much enjoy the scenery in western Massachusetts and New York on the westbound Lake Shore.)

We enjoy travelling on the western trains and will continue to do so as long as decent service continues. We will likely continue to sometimes travel on the westbound Lake Shore simply as the convenient way to connect to the western trains but I expect that we will fly back more often.

As a sleeping car passenger, the eastern Amtrak trains are no longer a good value. The Regional trains and Acela trains are well run and we will continue to travel on them as they are a good value as are the western Amtrak trains.

Are ANY of the long distance trains "good value?" for sleeping car passengers?

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Unfortunately that’s exactly what management wants people to do.

 

[Rasputin]

Are ANY of the long distance trains "good value?" for sleeping car passengers?

In my opinion all of the Amtrak trains west of the Mississippi are good value for sleeping car passengers and I have travelled on them at least once each year for the past ten years or so.

The Crescent used to be good value and I have enjoyed trips on that train. Due to its high sleeping car prices I wouldn't say the Lake Shore has been good value but until recently it has at least been tolerable.

This of course is quite subjective so I encourage people to try these trains out for themselves and come to their own conclusion.

 

[drfonta]

In my opinion all of the Amtrak trains west of the Mississippi are good value for sleeping car passengers and I have travelled on them at least once each year for the past ten years or so.

The Crescent used to be good value and I have enjoyed trips on that train. Due to its high sleeping car prices I wouldn't say the Lake Shore has been good value but until recently it has at least been tolerable.

This of course is quite subjective so I encourage people to try these trains out for themselves and come to their own conclusion.

My own conclusion is I don't take LD trains for "good value". I take them for the pleasure of rail travel. It would be MUCH more value to simply fly. Losing the traditional dining on the East coast sucks, but the price was already way over anything I could get flying first class.

 

[Rasputin]

My own conclusion is I don't take LD trains for "good value". I take them for the pleasure of rail travel. It would be MUCH more value to simply fly. Losing the traditional dining on the East coast sucks, but the price was already way over anything I could get flying first class.

I don't consider flying first class to be a necessary aspect of life.

 

[drfonta]

I don't consider flying first class to be a necessary aspect of life.

Ok, well then even better value flying economy. If one is looking for "good value" traveling on Amtrak in a sleeping car, then one will be sorely disappointed, regardless of dining service. Much cheaper and faster to simply fly...

 

[Rasputin]

Ok, well then even better value flying economy. If one is looking for "good value" traveling on Amtrak in a sleeping car, then one will be sorely disappointed, regardless of dining service. Much cheaper and faster to simply fly...

I have never been disappointed traveling on the Southwest Chief, Texas Eagle, Sunset, Empire Builder, California Zephyr by sleeping car even though I could be flying for less money. I have been disappointed as a sleeping car passenger with contempt dining on the eastbound Lake Shore and do not find the reasons to travel on that train to be compelling.

 

[drfonta]

I have never been disappointed traveling on the Southwest Chief, Texas Eagle, Sunset, Empire Builder, California Zephyr by sleeping car even though I could be flying for less money. I have been disappointed as a sleeping car passenger with contempt dining on the eastbound Lake Shore and do not find the reasons to travel on that train to be compelling.

Ok great. Then I don't understand your definition of "good value" then. To me the ONLY reason I travel LD by train is for the charm, accommodations, and long, slow relaxing trip, and YES for the meal service. As much as we're paying, NOT "good value" in any case. I do look forward to trying the western trains but don't expect "good value" out of them. I only expect a better dining car experience, and perhaps, better scenery.

 

[Brian Battuello]

Good discussion about the relative value of overnight sleepers. Everyone has to make their own judgements. I've been taking LD trains for over 55 years, and have seen just about everything. I've also taken the Canadian twice, and while it isn't perfect, it is dang close if you don't mind being late. I'll do anything to sit in a dome car.

When Amtrak took over, I never guessed that they would somehow hold together the sleeper/diner model for almost 50 years. I enjoy train travel for all the reasons stated above, including the scenery, the relaxed pace, and whatever mostly cheerful service they can manage to provide. The dining car is/was a very nice part of it, but not the whole. The first contemporary food was pretty horrible, but I just got back from a LSL RT Boston/Chicago with a person new to Amtrak, and the food wasn't actually embarrassing. The service was basically non-existent, but the guy did the best he could and kept smiling. My friend was blown away by the roomette, he said it was finer than any first class he'd ever experienced. Not even Emirates has a door and a toilet in their FC cubies, and you can't believe what they charge for those.

So anyway, I'll continue to ride as long as they'll let me. And thinking about a third VIA 1 ride...

 

[Manny T]

I don't understand "good value" to mean cheap or inexpensive.

To me "good value" means -- whatever the price point, high OR low -- what you receive is at least equal to or, in some cases, above what you pay. When you receive "good value" you can reliably set your expectations by the price.

Given sleeper prices these days -- e.g. $380 roomette, $600 bedroom on the LSL next month CHI-NYP -- not sure how receiving a $2.49 TV dinner and a bargain basement breakfast, along with unreliable service, can ever equal "good value."

 

[PaTrainFan]

Good value is purely subjective to every individual. Period. How many ads do you see for "affordable" BMWs and other luxury cars? Affordable to maybe 10 percent of the population. Maybe. Same applies to good value, whatever you are willing to pay and receive enjoyment and positive exp3erience from.

 

[drfonta]

Good value is purely subjective to every individual. Period. How many ads do you see for "affordable" BMWs and other luxury cars? Affordable to maybe 10 percent of the population. Maybe. Same applies to good value, whatever you are willing to pay and receive enjoyment and positive exp3erience from.

I agree, extremely subjective. I never thought LD train bedroom fares were "good value" even with the dining car. But then again, I pay for them, enjoy them, and will keep doing so so I guess I'm getting "good value" if I'm doing it? lol. I do see the whole point of this thread is to speak to the dining car change to flex and it apparently is a big enough deal to stop people from riding LD trains. As bad as it might be, I'm not one of them. I do agree with Rasputin that the NE routes are actually "good value" and a much better option to flying...as I digress....