New Sleepers Being Planned!

[VPayne]

The sleeper would have the same revenue capacity. At 9'-8 1/2" per room, 9.688', eight sets of rooms, 16 total, would take up 77.5' or 78.5' if the room next to the vestibule was lengthened by a foot and the door modified to become a handicapped room. Add an additional 3.5' for the vestibule and 3' for the end area between cars and you have 85.0' which would allow you to give a little more room at the end of the car away from the vestibule as storage space and a non-formal crush zone. So with 16 rooms you have the capacity of 32 people but since the attendant would take one room you have a 30 passenger revenue capacity. The current Viewliner setup is for 12 Standard rooms, 2 Deluxe Bedrooms, and a Deluxe Bedroom that doubles as a handicapped room for 30 revenue passengers. So the capacity is the same.

 

[VPayne]

I created a Plan View of an entire car to help explain the length/ capacity issue.

Plan View

 

[BostonTrainGuy]

Now that Bombardier has an "off-the-shelf" double-decker car that can run through New York's tunnels, I think Amtrak should work with them to design new bilevel sleepers, diners (kitchen below/seating above), and possibly lounge/snack bars.

The efficency of the bilevel design can not be ignored. Present day Viewliners are very inefficient. Go all Bombardier bilevel, even new coaches. Think of how many people you could get on a re-equipped Florida train.

And I have to agree that the economy bedroom is not comfortable for two people.

 

[AlanB]

Now that Bombardier has an "off-the-shelf" double-decker car that can run through New York's tunnels, I think Amtrak should work with them to design new bilevel sleepers, diners (kitchen below/seating above), and possibly lounge/snack bars.
The efficency of the bilevel design can not be ignored. Present day Viewliners are very inefficient. Go all Bombardier bilevel, even new coaches. Think of how many people you could get on a re-equipped Florida train.

And I have to agree that the economy bedroom is not comfortable for two people.

That might work for diners and lounges, but it won't work well for coaches and sleeping cars. The coaches won't work, since there will be no room for luggage. One can barely fit a slim briefcase on the overhead racks in a Bombardier commuter coach. That will be unaceptable for long distance trains.

And as things stand right now, there is barely enough room in the upper bunk on a Superliner sleeper. Cutting down that room any further would simply be unacceptable, and that's exactly what would happen with on of the Bom cars.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

The fleet is started to get old. And how old are the viewliners now?? 10 years old, and with only 50 of them, dont get much of a break. The superliner fleet is even older. The fact of the matter is that these cars need a serious rebuild and/or replacement. However with amtraks lack of money, its unlikely they will get what they really need.

 

[AlanB]

The fleet is started to get old. And how old are the viewliners now?? 10 years old, and with only 50 of them, dont get much of a break. The superliner fleet is even older. The fact of the matter is that these cars need a serious rebuild and/or replacement. However with amtraks lack of money, its unlikely they will get what they really need.

No argument there. Amtrak definately needs some long term capital funding for new equipment.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

The fleet is started to get old. And how old are the viewliners now?? 10 years old, and with only 50 of them, dont get much of a break. The superliner fleet is even older. The fact of the matter is that these cars need a serious rebuild and/or replacement. However with amtraks lack of money, its unlikely they will get what they really need.

No argument there. Amtrak definately needs some long term capital funding for new equipment.

Amtrak could argue that a new fleet and better facilities could be a good jumping off point for a new amtrak.

I would say amtrak needs about, a good 10 to 15 billion dollars.

For the NEC >>>

The new penn station in NYC still (GRRR!!!) hasnt been built yet. Amtrak really needs the space if they are going to grow to profitiablity in the NEC. The NEC just needs a flat out upgrade, NY state needs to allow the Acela to tilt (there is no reason it shouldnt right now), New York is just being a torn in amtraks side (again) and the NEC line needs to be improved so the acela train can run at near 150 mph for the entire duration. This would actually cut times the way amtrak orginally promised the acela would and CAN, most importantly. New more modern cars need to be coupled with the HHP-8's. And Stations need improved.

Long haul west of the Chicago >>>

The Viewliners need a replacement, a full viewliner train too, not some ugly combo of viewliner sleepers and amfleets. Off the shelf parts shouldnt be an option, amtrak needs a train designed from the ground up for their needs. This train would need the latest in technology to make sure it could ride over not so smooth freight tracks as smooth as possible (alot like the Talgo's do).

The Non-NYC bound Long Haul fleet >>>

The Superliners are getting old, really old. Like the viewliner replacements, these cars would too need to be designed from the ground up to fit amtraks needs. They would be Bilevel and ride smoother than the current superliner fleet. These trains would be longer, with more first class and coach seating. Lounges would have a lower level movie theater and snack/giftshop similar to the one there is now, with windows lol. Coaches would have lower level showers and bathrooms as well.

For all LD trains >>>

The all LD trains would have first class type sleepers, with a private first class parlor car. Coach seating would be more comfortable with plusher padding; All seats and sleepers would have power hookups for laptops and internet via satellite for free. Satellite video personal entertainment systems would be offered for a nominal fee(5 to 10 dollars), and would attact comfortable to the armrest of the passenger. These devices would plug into the amrest as to not worry about batteries. Food would be at reasonable prices that they are at now to make sure all passenger could afford a diner meal if they wanted. Food would be a mix of pre-prepared and cooked onboard for fast service without sacraficing quality. Diners and lounges would be improved for more comfort and design.

This is not to much to ask, unlike some of my other purposals, im not asking for 700 billion dollars for a nationwide passenger rail route.

Couple these with stricter federal ontime rules for the freight railroads, and amtrak would be going places. Possibility to profitability.

 

[Palmland]

I hope Amtrak does something for us east coast first class passengers. Rather than reinvent the wheel, why not pull out the excellant designs for cars made by Budd that are still rolling today. Sure modifications would be needed for todays requirements, but the basic designs and construction were good.

And yes, toilets should be in all rooms. It was not gross, just a really nice convenience that worked well for the 60 years that the old roomettes ran. For $300 room you should not have to go down the hall to go to the bathroom. But please no TV's. Aside from the maintenance issues, no one wants to listen to someone else's TV program. Bring your own DVD player or computer (with ear phones) if you must.

Since Amtrak is into diner lounges now, why not have some of them made as a first class lounge sleeper. These were so numerous on the railroads in the past. Would be ideal for a train like the Crescent or Lake Shore.

 

[battalion51]

I'm sorry but putting showers into the coaches is not a wise idea, there would be way too many issues with that volume of passengers in a coach, not to mention the revenue space you would lose. While I do think that first class lounges and these sorts of ammenities would be great to have, you have to look at the revenue you are getting from that space. First class lounges like the Pacific Parlour car bring in absolutely zero revenue for the company. So the company is having to expend money to keep these cars rolling, pulling power, and electricity for something that brings in no revenue. They only do this for the Dorms because that's required by contract, and even some of the Superliners bring in revenue by selling rooms now. You'll also note they are moving away from Heritage Baggage and towards Baggage coaches because its lower maintenance costs and less you have to pull. So until this company is getting $3-4 billion a year they need to concentrate on core cars that bring in money.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Battallion, it is possible that what Palmland meant by first class lounge sleeper is not a pacific parlor car type thing. Instead he may have meant a combination lounge-sleeper, which was common in the past.

Often they had configurations like 5 double bedroom-bar lounge; 6DBR, lounge; 8 sections lounge etc.

Very common at one time.

Some trains had a combination pullman lounge, as described above and a separate car half coach and half lounge, etc. Sometimes a pullman lounge might be in addition to other lounges on the train, esp. a very long full train. Many of the big trains form CHI to FLA and NYC to FLA had such cars at one time.

The Silver Metor was known for a fancy sun room type sleeper lounge with windows on the ceiling. I think it had five bedrooms, don't remember for sure.

Now----none of this might answer your point about significant revenue, just clarification of possible meaning of such terms.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

Ok scratch the showers in coach idea, but i still thing parlor cars would be good for attracting people into first class when advertising is done.

 

[battalion51]

Regardless Bill you still should try to maximize revenue as much as possible. Now what you maybe could do is take one have of the Diner/Lounge and designate the forward half for first class passengers so they can have that space during non meal hours.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

I think something amtrak needs to take into consideration is better sound reduction, nothing like the engineers horn to keep you up at night lol.

 

[battalion51]

Maybe better insulation on the cars, but reducing the horn volume at night is not safe. That's a big safety thing, and if anything you might also need more horn at night in my opinion. All these people that want horn reductions in their neighborhoods need to just move, the trains were there long before they were.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I hope Amtrak does something for us east coast first class passengers. Rather than reinvent the wheel, why not pull out the excellant designs for cars made by Budd that are still rolling today. Sure modifications would be needed for todays requirements, but the basic designs and construction were good.
And yes, toilets should be in all rooms. It was not gross, just a really nice convenience that worked well for the 60 years that the old roomettes ran. For $300 room you should not have to go down the hall to go to the bathroom. But please no TV's. Aside from the maintenance issues, no one wants to listen to someone else's TV program. Bring your own DVD player or computer (with ear phones) if you must.

Since Amtrak is into diner lounges now, why not have some of them made as a first class lounge sleeper. These were so numerous on the railroads in the past. Would be ideal for a train like the Crescent or Lake Shore.

I agree withi Palmland that the toilets in the pre-Amtrak roomettes were not gross. Remember, only one person was in there. And the toilet was so covered up you did not notice it until you needed it. In fact you may have used it as a foot - leg rest.

Just a note about the word "parlor car". the closest thing we have today for that would be like the Acela's first class car. And some would dispute that even that was close enough. Anyway, a parlor car was a revenue producing day seat with wide comfy seats. Parlor cars were mostly needed in the days when coaches did not even have recliining seats. They became less needed later.

Amtrak's use of the word "parlor" as in "Pacific Parlor Car' is a market savy alliteration, i.e. two words staring wiht a "p", to forge a pleasant memory pattern. Great idea!! Just a bit of poetic license, not historically correct..

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Why not add a couple of pay showers, maybe two or three per train, depending on the total number of coaches and the number of nights enroute? Maybe $20 or $25 for 20 minutes, or something like that? That would turn it into revenue space, and if you had one or two per LD train, I think you might just get enough takers to generate a profit. Schedule the time, and pay, with the Conductor, pick up the key and deliver it back to the Conductor, or lounge attendant, or whatever. Many LD coach passengers would avail themselves of it, I would think - the ones doing at least a couple of overnights on the train on the way to their destination.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

Maybe better insulation on the cars, but reducing the horn volume at night is not safe. That's a big safety thing, and if anything you might also need more horn at night in my opinion. All these people that want horn reductions in their neighborhoods need to just move, the trains were there long before they were.

Im talking about better sound proofing for the cars, they dont hear the horn at night.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

Why not add a couple of pay showers, maybe two or three per train, depending on the total number of coaches and the number of nights enroute?  Maybe $20 or $25 for 20 minutes, or something like that?  That would turn it into revenue space, and if you had one or two per LD train, I think you might just get enough takers to generate a profit.  Schedule the time, and pay,  with the Conductor, pick up the key and deliver it back to the Conductor, or lounge attendant, or whatever.  Many LD coach passengers would avail themselves of it, I would think - the ones doing at least a couple of overnights on the train on the way to their destination.

I was also thinking a pay shower might be a good idea, then they wouldnt have to have any added seat cost, the showers would pay for their own maintenance.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

I still think a good first class lounge could help bring people onboard.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

I think something amtrak needs to take into consideration is better sound reduction, nothing like the engineers horn to keep you up at night lol.

Well for what it is worth.........here's my opinion on this one. You are on a train! There will be horn blowing especially where grade crossings are concerned!! If one doesn't like that, then maybe the train isn't the best choice to travel overnight.

On the other hand, for the comfort of the sleeper passengers a simple reversing of the consist would help considerably! That is one reason why in the old days the sleepers were usually put into the rear of the train's consist whenever practical. We used to have the sleepers on the rear of the consist over here on "Silver Service" for the longest time (with the exception of when the two trains used to split) until they all of a sudden started putting the sleepers in the front of the consist. OBS...

 

[AlanB]

I think something amtrak needs to take into consideration is better sound reduction, nothing like the engineers horn to keep you up at night lol.

Well for what it is worth.........here's my opinion on this one. You are on a train! There will be horn blowing especially where grade crossings are concerned!! If one doesn't like that, then maybe the train isn't the best choice to travel overnight.

On the other hand, for the comfort of the sleeper passengers a simple reversing of the consist would help considerably! That is one reason why in the old days the sleepers were usually put into the rear of the train's consist whenever practical. We used to have the sleepers on the rear of the consist over here on "Silver Service" for the longest time (with the exception of when the two trains used to split) until they all of a sudden started putting the sleepers in the front of the consist. OBS...

I for one actually like hearing the horn and once I've gone to sleep, it doesn't usually bother me at all. I do realize though that for some it is a bother.

As for the position of the sleepers within the consist, OBS is right, moving them to the rear would diminish the horn considerably. However, the ride gets much rougher on the rear. I find that the cars ride better in the middle of the consist, as opposed to being on the bottom. So you might be trading less horn for a rougher ride. :unsure:

 

[RailFanNebraska]

I think something amtrak needs to take into consideration is better sound reduction, nothing like the engineers horn to keep you up at night lol.

Well for what it is worth.........here's my opinion on this one. You are on a train! There will be horn blowing especially where grade crossings are concerned!! If one doesn't like that, then maybe the train isn't the best choice to travel overnight.

On the other hand, for the comfort of the sleeper passengers a simple reversing of the consist would help considerably! That is one reason why in the old days the sleepers were usually put into the rear of the train's consist whenever practical. We used to have the sleepers on the rear of the consist over here on "Silver Service" for the longest time (with the exception of when the two trains used to split) until they all of a sudden started putting the sleepers in the front of the consist. OBS...

I for one actually like hearing the horn and once I've gone to sleep, it doesn't usually bother me at all. I do realize though that for some it is a bother.

As for the position of the sleepers within the consist, OBS is right, moving them to the rear would diminish the horn considerably. However, the ride gets much rougher on the rear. I find that the cars ride better in the middle of the consist, as opposed to being on the bottom. So you might be trading less horn for a rougher ride. :unsure:

hmmmm?? i have always found the ride at the rear is always better than the front.

 

[AlanB]

I think something amtrak needs to take into consideration is better sound reduction, nothing like the engineers horn to keep you up at night lol.

Well for what it is worth.........here's my opinion on this one. You are on a train! There will be horn blowing especially where grade crossings are concerned!! If one doesn't like that, then maybe the train isn't the best choice to travel overnight.

On the other hand, for the comfort of the sleeper passengers a simple reversing of the consist would help considerably! That is one reason why in the old days the sleepers were usually put into the rear of the train's consist whenever practical. We used to have the sleepers on the rear of the consist over here on "Silver Service" for the longest time (with the exception of when the two trains used to split) until they all of a sudden started putting the sleepers in the front of the consist. OBS...

I for one actually like hearing the horn and once I've gone to sleep, it doesn't usually bother me at all. I do realize though that for some it is a bother.

As for the position of the sleepers within the consist, OBS is right, moving them to the rear would diminish the horn considerably. However, the ride gets much rougher on the rear. I find that the cars ride better in the middle of the consist, as opposed to being on the bottom. So you might be trading less horn for a rougher ride. :unsure:

hmmmm?? i have always found the ride at the rear is always better than the front.

Nope, last car on the train always bounces around a bit more, since it has only one car to help stabalize it and counteract the sway. Always better to be in the middle.

Ever play whiplash with your friends when you were little? The guy at the end of the chain always falls off first.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

Yes it is true the ride in the very last car tends to be a little rougher due to the sway. However, the horn is not the only reason I prefer the middle towards the rear of the train. I seem to smell the fumes from the loco a little bit more being the sleepers and crew dorm are on the front half of the consist. A lot of times I will take over an empty coach if it is available during my downtime being I will sleep better back there. But the coach has to have been emptied out with no other chance of using it during that time, though. With this in mind, I also like a little buffer between me and the front of the train for obvious reasons I am not going to detail here.

And as AlanB states in the middle of the train is about the best place ridewise as far back as the second to the last car pretty much. On my "Canadian" trip last year, my accomodation was in one of the middle cars towards the rear, too. That made for a comfortable trip. OBS...

 

[Palmland]

Sleepers should absolutely be on the rear. Less horn noice (although I like it), shorter walk for first class passengers boarding a train like the Capitol in Washington or Chicago, keep most of the head end activity (baggage and the majority of passengers in coach together near the engine at intermediate stops) and of courss, it's fun to look out the rear window in the last car on the train.

As to uncomfotrable ride on the last car, the easy solution is put the first class lounge car there (like the Canadian).