New Sleepers Being Planned!

[AlanB]

shorter walk for first class passengers boarding a train like the Capitol in Washington or Chicago,

And a longer walk when you get to the other end of the line. :lol: So there is really no difference in that regard.

 

[Guest_Amtrak_flyer]

I would debate the statement the Palour Car does not bring any revenue to Amtrak. I upgrade to a roomette all the time on my day trips from LA to San Jose or Oakland. I dont have any numbers but I would be willing to bet the Coast Starlight sells more day rooms then any other train because of the Parlour Car and its first class services.

 

[Boxcar]

Sleepers should absolutely be on the rear. Less horn noice (although I like it), shorter walk for first class passengers boarding a train like the Capitol in Washington or Chicago, keep most of the head end activity (baggage and the majority of passengers in coach together near the engine at intermediate stops) and of courss, it's fun to look out the rear window in the last car on the train.
As to uncomfotrable ride on the last car, the easy solution is put the first class lounge car there (like the Canadian).

No No No.......

As to uncomfotrable ride on the last car, the easy solution is put the first class lounge car there (like the Canadian).

Please don't advocate the traverseing of every passenger through the sleeper cars... The NB Eagle last month placed a coach car on behind our sleeper in St Louis and the traffic was non stop all night.

Very disturbing while trying to sleep.

 

[Palmland]

Sleepers should absolutely be on the rear. Less horn noice (although I like it), shorter walk for first class passengers boarding a train like the Capitol in Washington or Chicago, keep most of the head end activity (baggage and the majority of passengers in coach together near the engine at intermediate stops) and of courss, it's fun to look out the rear window in the last car on the train.
As to uncomfotrable ride on the last car, the easy solution is put the first class lounge car there (like the Canadian).

No No No.......

As to uncomfotrable ride on the last car, the easy solution is put the first class lounge car there (like the Canadian).

Please don't advocate the traverseing of every passenger through the sleeper cars... The NB Eagle last month placed a coach car on behind our sleeper in St Louis and the traffic was non stop all night.

Very disturbing while trying to sleep.

Boxcar

I quite agree - what I said was a first class lounge on the rear - no coach passengers. Although in reality a first class lounge, unless it was an observation, is better next to the diner for drinks before dinner and as a buffer for coach traffic.

Alan B

If done right, the train backs in at destination, if a stub end terminal, like the B&O did at Washington.

 

[battalion51]

Well there actually a bunch of trains where this happens on a regular basis.

-The Texas Eagle run through to the Sunset

-The City of New Orleans (when the set runs through from the Eagle)

-The Captiol Ltd (whichever direction it may be, but always one way)

But in general I think the sleepers should stay on the head end. Because of how the train is operated one Conductor is responsible for baggage and sleepers while the other handles to coaches. It's much more practical to have the responsibilities consolidated rather than having the Conductors run all over the place. So until there are two AC's on every train keep the consist as is. The only other way you could get the sleepers onto the rear is to turn the whole consist around, but then you're putting the coaches right up against the engine, which would create a lot more noise, especially for the people in that first car since they're right next to the Helicopter Room.

 

[Boxcar]

Boxcar
I quite agree - what I said was a first class lounge on the rear - no coach passengers. Although in reality a first class lounge, unless it was an observation, is better next to the diner for drinks before dinner and as a buffer for coach traffic.

Sorry Palmland...I stand corrected I was thinking one thing (observation/lounge car) and not reading 1st class lounge.. :blink:

Never experenced a first class only lounge as yet so I would guess the traffic wouldn't be much more if any than the amount going through the sleepers already.

 

[Guest_Vpayne]

Well, I thought this thread had been forgotten a long time ago. I have updated the design originally shown to include a workable handicapped room, per the ADA guidelines, and to add some more detail. I was thinking of doing some photo renderings on AutoCad but have not gotten around to it. From what I understand even the Viewliner refurbishment program has been canceled, but this is based on Amtrak's monthly public reporting of the mechanical programs. This is really sad as the push for this seems to have come from the somewhat false DOT IG report regarding sleepers and diners. Maybe it will be corrected this micro-managing cycle by congress.

 

[Guest_Vpayne]

Oh yeah, since then I have been exploring solid state thermoelectric units for the airconditioning/heating function as they would allow each room to have its own controls and sound insulated airflow, perhaps just sharing the return air with the rest of the car. I was also thinking about eliminating the use of a whole car hot water system and instead using instantaneous heaters in line with the water supply for the shower and sink. To actually supply the shower and sink I was thinking that each car would have a tank, say around 10 gallons, which would be supplied by just a 3/8" line with airpressure. The tank would be translucent so that the occupants could tell that the water was being taken out of the tank so this would effectively limit water consumption as you would have to wait for the tank to refill, for about 5 minutes if you used more than 10 gallons. I was also thinking of using the EVAC series of porcelan cantilevered vacumn assist toilets which is what most of the cruise lines are using. To dispose of the black water I was thinking of using a thermal decomposer which would take the black water from a surge holding tank and heat it until ash was left, eliminating the need for the tank to be flushed. All of these changes should provide for a more maintenance friendly design. Just my thoughts.

 

[PennCentralFan]

From my observations and talking to riders there isn't a need for a middle-class on the LD trains. Most people choose coach to save money and the seats on the superliners do give you enough room to stretch out. I don't think there's a demand for that.

What they could do is bring back the sleepers which were done in a bunk-bed format that you see in movies, where you have an upper and a lower berth and a curtain or something like a door which would provide you with some sound proofing, and reading light. You could have maybe air vents. I forget what those are called.

The main thing is to be able to lie down on a bed or some sort and to have a curtain for privacy. But you would have the problem of snoring from others or those who talk in their sleep or scream in their sleep, but some insulation and doors or screens covering the berths would solve that problem.

 

[saxman]

I was hoping an equipment discusion would come up like this. I've been pondering what the LD's new consist should be once the the Superliners fade out. I do love the new rebuilt Superliners on the EB. They are very sleek looking, and anyone observer would look and say, wow thats a shiny sleek train.

So for future LD trains, they need somthing very modern looking, and silver looks good too. Bi-level of course but I'd like to see one continous consist, like the Talgo trainsets and the Acela's. Yet design it so they can still be dissconnected depending on load factors for the season. The interior should be ultra modern too, with LCD displays showing the next stop and ETA's and other announcements.

I'm a big fan of the Talgo's. They should be implemented on other corridors. I'd also like to see over-night corridor trains with sleepers. Just like the Federal. No dining car really. Just have a simple bed to lay down on and you arrive the next morning for your meeting. Like leaving Chicago at 11 pm and arrive at MSP at 6 or 7 am the next morning. But yes, this is a funding issuse and lack forsight of Amtrak and ourselves.

Amtrak should be trying to improve revenues, by making services really good, and not simply cut costs. The Empire Builder is very good example. I wonder how that is doing?? Amtrak cannot be run like Southwest Airlines like many people are trying to say. Services is what make it attractive.

 

[MrFSS]

From my observations and talking to riders there isn't a need for a middle-class on the LD trains. Most people choose coach to save money and the seats on the superliners do give you enough room to stretch out.  I don't think there's a demand for that.
What they could do is bring back the sleepers which were done in a bunk-bed format that you see in movies, where you have an upper and a lower berth and a curtain or something like a door which would provide you with some sound proofing, and reading light. You could have maybe air vents. I forget what those are called.

The main thing is to be able to lie down on a bed or some sort and to have a curtain for privacy. But you would have the problem of snoring from others or those who talk in their sleep or scream in their sleep, but some insulation and doors or screens covering the berths would solve that problem.

The Canadian still runs what you describe. They are called SECTIONS.

This picture from our trip last year will give you an idea. You can see where the upper bunk is and it folds down. Curtains give privacy, but not much noise protection.

We had a bedroom, but I found sitting in a section seat was much more comfortable than sitting in the bedroom. All the bedrooms were full on our car, but none of the sections, except one lower.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

From my observations and talking to riders there isn't a need for a middle-class on the LD trains. Most people choose coach to save money and the seats on the superliners do give you enough room to stretch out.  I don't think there's a demand for that.
What they could do is bring back the sleepers which were done in a bunk-bed format that you see in movies, where you have an upper and a lower berth and a curtain or something like a door which would provide you with some sound proofing, and reading light. You could have maybe air vents. I forget what those are called.

The main thing is to be able to lie down on a bed or some sort and to have a curtain for privacy. But you would have the problem of snoring from others or those who talk in their sleep or scream in their sleep, but some insulation and doors or screens covering the berths would solve that problem.

The kind of sleeper space, semi private, green curtain, etc, like in the movie "Some Like It Hot' are called "sections."

In the time before Amtrak, sections faded away on many railroads, in favor of various types of private rooms. But some trains, even as streamliners, always had them, the Canadian trains, just for one example.

Oh, most railroads may have had a few, but they still did fade in popularity in the streamlined area. Many trains proudly advertised themselves as having only "all room" sleepers.

I do not think Amtrak inherited any sleepers with sections. They for sure did not last into the time when Amtrak began classifying them as "heritage sleepers"--all of those were all room, to be sure.

One thing about a section, esp. that lower bed, it was the widest bed in all U.S. railroading. That comes from the complete lack of amenities, no toilet, no wash basin, etc. It is a trade-out.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Amtrak only accepted sleepers that were all room cars from the railroads that operated passenger trains prior to 5/1/1971. As I recall there were only 2 trains still operating sleepers with sections in them prior to Amtrak; the Gulf Wind which L&N/SCL operated 3 days a week between New Orleans to Jacksonville and the Butte Special which UP operated between Salt lake City and Butte. I believe the sleepers were 6 sections 6 roomettes and 4 double bedroom cars which is what most of the streamlined cars that contained sections were. The reason streamlined cars were built with sections in the late 40s and early 50s is because the government and other businesses were only reimbursing business travelers for berths for a long time after most travelers would have preferred a room. The 6/6/4 cars were nice because you could actually buy a seat in the section during the day at a very reasonable price and it gave a little more privacy than a coach seat. L&N operated 6/6/4s on the Hummingbird and other trains in the mid 1960s.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Amtrak only accepted sleepers that were all room cars from the railroads that operated passenger trains prior to 5/1/1971.  As I recall there were only 2 trains still operating sleepers with sections in them prior to Amtrak; the Gulf Wind which L&N/SCL operated 3 days a week between New Orleans to Jacksonville and  the Butte Special which UP operated between Salt lake City and Butte.  I believe the sleepers were 6 sections 6 roomettes and 4 double bedroom cars which is what most of the streamlined cars that contained sections were.  The reason streamlined cars were built with sections in the late 40s and early 50s is because the government and other businesses were only reimbursing business travelers for berths for a long time after most travelers would have preferred a room. The 6/6/4 cars were nice because you could actually buy a seat in the section during the day at a very reasonable price and it gave a little more privacy than a coach seat.  L&N operated 6/6/4s on the Hummingbird and other trains in the mid 1960s.

You bring back great memories, yes, I am very familiar with 6 section 6 roomette 4 double bedroom sleepers. I grew up in Chattanooga when it was, first, Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis territory, then taken over the by the L&N in 1957.

There were 29 such sleepers built in 1953 , all named after pine trees. Three railroads went into that order: NC&STL, L&N and also Chicago & Eastern Illinois. They were originally for the Humming Bird, the Georgian, the Pan American, the Gulf WInd, and, at first, the Azalea, later the Flamingo. Later than that, any number trains.

This, of course, is aside from those built for other lines.

If you are ever near Chattanooga, TN., check them out, there is one, called Chcikamauga Pine, on display at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum

Yep, a number of other liines had 6-6-4's also. I had always heard that sections were often occupied by military.

The above cars referred to were very much streamliined cars. Heavyweight sleepers with sections usually had other kinds of floor plans. It is a vast subject---the former sleeping cars----so I find it safe to stick with generalities.

 

[MrFSS]

If you are ever near Chattanooga, TN., check them out, there is one, called Chcikamauga Pine, on display at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum

Hey, Bill, I will be riding the Tenn Valley Railroad in a few weeks. Have been riden it before?

We will ride the Chickamauga Turn train on 8/12.

I want to go to the CHOO-CHOO display at the Holiday Inn, too.

Any other ideas for the area?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

If you are ever near Chattanooga, TN., check them out, there is one, called Chcikamauga Pine, on display at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum

Hey, Bill, I will be riding the Tenn Valley Railroad in a few weeks. Have been riden it before?

We will ride the Chickamauga Turn train on 8/12.

I want to go to the CHOO-CHOO display at the Holiday Inn, too.

Any other ideas for the area?

Good to hear it. Yes, I have ridden their trains a time or two---very nice. But I am also interested in the old equipment display.

The Choo Choo is something you should do, but --it is more about hotels than about trains. You do see a lot of railcars used as hotel rooms. This is the old Southern Railroad Station. There was another station, now torn down, for the L&N.

At the Choo Choo there is a model layout upstairs which is rather good in most respects, though it does show Amtrak equipment in Chattanooga, which never happened (unless, maybe, on temporary exhibit)

VERY IMPORTANT--make room to include the Lookout Mountain Incline into your journey. Look it up on the internet. It is neat. .E-mail me personally if you have a lot of in depth questions.

 

[AlanB]

E-mail me personally if you have a lot of in depth questions.

The email function on this board is currently not working, so you guys will have to exhange PM's, or at least exchange email addresses via PM's.

 

[Palmland]

Amtrak only accepted sleepers that were all room cars from the railroads that operated passenger trains prior to 5/1/1971.  As I recall there were only 2 trains still operating sleepers with sections in them prior to Amtrak; the Gulf Wind which L&N/SCL operated 3 days a week between New Orleans to Jacksonville and  the Butte Special which UP operated between Salt lake City and Butte.  I believe the sleepers were 6 sections 6 roomettes and 4 double bedroom cars which is what most of the streamlined cars that contained sections were.  The reason streamlined cars were built with sections in the late 40s and early 50s is because the government and other businesses were only reimbursing business travelers for berths for a long time after most travelers would have preferred a room. The 6/6/4 cars were nice because you could actually buy a seat in the section during the day at a very reasonable price and it gave a little more privacy than a coach seat.  L&N operated 6/6/4s on the Hummingbird and other trains in the mid 1960s.

You bring back great memories, yes, I am very familiar with 6 section 6 roomette 4 double bedroom sleepers. I grew up in Chattanooga when it was, first, Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis territory, then taken over the by the L&N in 1957.

There were 29 such sleepers built in 1953 , all named after pine trees. Three railroads went into that order: NC&STL, L&N and also Chicago & Eastern Illinois. They were originally for the Humming Bird, the Georgian, the Pan American, the Gulf WInd, and, at first, the Azalea, later the Flamingo. Later than that, any number trains.

This, of course, is aside from those built for other lines.

If you are ever near Chattanooga, TN., check them out, there is one, called Chcikamauga Pine, on display at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum

Yep, a number of other liines had 6-6-4's also. I had always heard that sections were often occupied by military.

The above cars referred to were very much streamliined cars. Heavyweight sleepers with sections usually had other kinds of floor plans. It is a vast subject---the former sleeping cars----so I find it safe to stick with generalities.

Bill

One of my favorite short trips was on a visit to grandparents in Clarksville, TN for the summer. We decided to take an excursion to Chattanooga - the year was 1957 (I remember because Elvis was the hot new star). We drove to Guthrie and had a bedroom one on the Dixie Flyer for the daylight run down to Chattanooga. We thought it was going to be an open section car, but instead was one of the new cars used on the Dixieland - a 4 sec-4 rmte-5DB-1Cpt car. Great trip as we were the last car on the train and stood in the back vestibule talking with the Flagman for most of the run.

The highlight in Chattanooga was the Incline and a tour of Ruby Fall's. Our Grandmother was sure she smelled bears deep in the caves under the mountain. That story has long since become part of our familly's folklore.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Amtrak only accepted sleepers that were all room cars from the railroads that operated passenger trains prior to 5/1/1971.  As I recall there were only 2 trains still operating sleepers with sections in them prior to Amtrak; the Gulf Wind which L&N/SCL operated 3 days a week between New Orleans to Jacksonville and  the Butte Special which UP operated between Salt lake City and Butte.  I believe the sleepers were 6 sections 6 roomettes and 4 double bedroom cars which is what most of the streamlined cars that contained sections were.  The reason streamlined cars were built with sections in the late 40s and early 50s is because the government and other businesses were only reimbursing business travelers for berths for a long time after most travelers would have preferred a room. The 6/6/4 cars were nice because you could actually buy a seat in the section during the day at a very reasonable price and it gave a little more privacy than a coach seat.  L&N operated 6/6/4s on the Hummingbird and other trains in the mid 1960s.

You bring back great memories, yes, I am very familiar with 6 section 6 roomette 4 double bedroom sleepers. I grew up in Chattanooga when it was, first, Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis territory, then taken over the by the L&N in 1957.

There were 29 such sleepers built in 1953 , all named after pine trees. Three railroads went into that order: NC&STL, L&N and also Chicago & Eastern Illinois. They were originally for the Humming Bird, the Georgian, the Pan American, the Gulf WInd, and, at first, the Azalea, later the Flamingo. Later than that, any number trains.

This, of course, is aside from those built for other lines.

If you are ever near Chattanooga, TN., check them out, there is one, called Chcikamauga Pine, on display at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum

Yep, a number of other liines had 6-6-4's also. I had always heard that sections were often occupied by military.

The above cars referred to were very much streamliined cars. Heavyweight sleepers with sections usually had other kinds of floor plans. It is a vast subject---the former sleeping cars----so I find it safe to stick with generalities.

Bill

One of my favorite short trips was on a visit to grandparents in Clarksville, TN for the summer. We decided to take an excursion to Chattanooga - the year was 1957 (I remember because Elvis was the hot new star). We drove to Guthrie and had a bedroom one on the Dixie Flyer for the daylight run down to Chattanooga. We thought it was going to be an open section car, but instead was one of the new cars used on the Dixieland - a 4 sec-4 rmte-5DB-1Cpt car. Great trip as we were the last car on the train and stood in the back vestibule talking with the Flagman for most of the run.

The highlight in Chattanooga was the Incline and a tour of Ruby Fall's. Our Grandmother was sure she smelled bears deep in the caves under the mountain. That story has long since become part of our familly's folklore.

Great memoris! Yes,I can visualize that trip (well....not sure about the bears). The 4-4-5-1 cars were, as you say, Dixieland cars. In the summer of 57 the Dixieland (new name for the Dixie Flagler, effective Dec. 16 1954) did not need all of its snowbird pullmans, so they did run on the Dixie Flyer in the summer. Guess the Flyer still had a dining car then?

Sadly,by the end of November of that year 1957 the Dixieland was gone.

So those shiny new (well, three years old) 4-4-5-1's found homes on the South Wind (which was to become Amtrak's Floridian) and the Georgian. A good use of them, to be sure, but it still meant no more Dixieland(former Dixie Flagler).

It must have been neat looking out the rear platform, no mail car to block your view, etc.

As to Elvis, I remember " Elvis before he was Elvis". My sister double-dated with him a time or two when she livedin Memphis !!! (and,no, I never met him)

 

[Boxcar]

Hey Guys.....How were the sections usually sold? As one unit like a sleepette or as a cheaper sleeper for two seperate people?

 

[cbender]

going to be an open section car, but instead was one of the new cars used on the Dixieland - a 4 sec-4 rmte-5DB-1Cpt car.

What is a "1Cpt"? Being that there was only one, it must have been good...

 

[MrFSS]

Hey Guys.....How were the sections usually sold? As one unit like a sleepette or as a cheaper sleeper for two seperate people?

They were sold separately. It was also the custom in the 30's - 50's that if a lady had only purchased an upper and a gentleman a lower, common courtesy would have him give her the lower and he would take the upper, even though she had paid less for the upper. Those were the good old days!!

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

going to be an open section car, but instead was one of the new cars used on the Dixieland - a 4 sec-4 rmte-5DB-1Cpt car.

What is a "1Cpt"? Being that there was only one, it must have been good...

That was one compartment. A compartment was a larger more expensive room than a bedroom.

 

[Palmland]

Bill

Well since you spoke of the Dixieland's demise, part of the reason it came off in '57 was it had a wreck at Guthrie that summer. I know, as I was on the Memphis Pan the day of the wreck. The Memphis branch crossed the Henderson Div, mainline at Guthrie. The daily freight on the Memphis line lost his brakes as he was preparing to stop on the siding just before the crossing.

Since he could not stop, he drifted into the Dixieland, which was moving at regular speed through the crossing, and struck the dining car.

I believe 6 of the dining car staff were killed - thankfully it was between meal times- as well as the head end crew on the freight. My train was behind the freight and we pulled into Guthrie on the main, beside the freight an hour or so after it happened. Quite an experience for a 12 year old. Fortunately my grandmother with the help of the Clarksville ticket agent, P.O. Bledsoe, retrieved me from the train. It was some sight as we walked through the wreckage.

 

[AmtrakFan]

A Section would be a good idea for a Economy Sleeper I felt they should have but we know it won't happen