Next Gen TGV Duplex

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

cirdan

Conductor
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
2,500
Yes. There was never a doubt that Avelia Liberty is a TGV clone, and the real evidence is the use of articulating Jacobs bogies (trucks)
Any idea why this was not done for the original Acela.
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
28,403
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
Yes. There was never a doubt that Avelia Liberty is a TGV clone, and the real evidence is the use of articulating Jacobs bogies (trucks)
Any idea why this was not done for the original Acela.
The RFP for that apparently specified 85' cars I think. That eliminated any wiggle room for the bidders to specify more appropriate technology/train architecture, and certainly eliminated anything like the TGV. It also did not require that anything that has ever worked anywhere be the basis for the response. So it became an exercise in the creation of a random collection of backward looking innovations slapped together, with constant modification requests from Amtrak. The result was almost predictable. Fortunately at least they did not revert back to gunslit windows, which by then had become contrary to fire regulations too I think.


In contrast, this time the RFP contained a set of performance requirements and asked the vendors to propose something to meet those requirements. Vendor proposals were then accepted with minimal change requests at least upto that point. I don;t know if things have gotten messed up since then.
 

PerRock

Conductor
Joined
Sep 16, 2006
Messages
1,897
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Yes. There was never a doubt that Avelia Liberty is a TGV clone, and the real evidence is the use of articulating Jacobs bogies (trucks)
Any idea why this was not done for the original Acela.
Because the Acela Is were made by Bombardier, and all the TGVs are made by Alstom. The Acela Is are an evolution of the Bombardier LRCs.

peter
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
28,403
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
Yes. There was never a doubt that Avelia Liberty is a TGV clone, and the real evidence is the use of articulating Jacobs bogies (trucks)
Any idea why this was not done for the original Acela.
Because the Acela Is were made by Bombardier, and all the TGVs are made by Alstom. The Acela Is are an evolution of the Bombardier LRCs.
peter
The power heads for Acela are essentially an Alstom product though.
BTW, another new gen TGV derivative:

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/italo-ntv-orders-more-high-speed-trainsets.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Mar 10, 2016
Messages
986
Yes. There was never a doubt that Avelia Liberty is a TGV clone, and the real evidence is the use of articulating Jacobs bogies (trucks)
Any idea why this was not done for the original Acela.
Because the Acela Is were made by Bombardier, and all the TGVs are made by Alstom. The Acela Is are an evolution of the Bombardier LRCs.
peter
The power heads for Acela are essentially an Alstom product though.
BTW, another new gen TGV derivative:

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/italo-ntv-orders-more-high-speed-trainsets.html
But will they run on time?
 

VentureForth

Conductor
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
5,996
Location
West Melbourne, FL
Interestingly, Japan's Tokaido Shinkansen line ran with 2 of it's 16 cars with double deckers for a while. Then, on the Joetsu, they were running "Max" - a full length duplex unit. But I think all are gone now. Sometimes these trains get REALLY crowded. Wonder why they don't have a modern duplex solution.
 

MattW

Conductor
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
1,729
Location
East of Atlanta, GA
With Japan's ingenuity, I'm actually surprised they haven't introduced a full two-level Shinkansen with two-level platforms negating the need for a lot of internal stairways (would still have to exist, just not as many).
 

cpotisch

Conductor
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
7,511
Location
Brooklyn, NY
With Japan's ingenuity, I'm actually surprised they haven't introduced a full two-level Shinkansen with two-level platforms negating the need for a lot of internal stairways (would still have to exist, just not as many).
How would they do two level platforms?
 

slasher-fun

Train Attendant
Joined
Jan 17, 2016
Messages
48
Location
Paris, France
With Japan's ingenuity, I'm actually surprised they haven't introduced a full two-level Shinkansen with two-level platforms negating the need for a lot of internal stairways (would still have to exist, just not as many).
More doors = less seats.
 

VentureForth

Conductor
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
5,996
Location
West Melbourne, FL
When the Tokaido Shinkansen had double deckers, weren't those the Green Cars?
I think that's how I remember it. I rode in a green car on the 100 series (the only variant on the Tokaido). There were only 2 double deckers out of 16 cars, and I was on the upper of one. I don't recall the configuration of the other three levels. The downstairs may have had Green compartments. Wow. It's been 30 years since I did that.
I thought I remembered a restaurant car, but thought by the late 80s they were all gone. Wiki has pictures of them, though. They had panoramic windows similar to Superliner lounges. Don't remember those.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: jis

VentureForth

Conductor
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
5,996
Location
West Melbourne, FL
With Japan's ingenuity, I'm actually surprised they haven't introduced a full two-level Shinkansen with two-level platforms negating the need for a lot of internal stairways (would still have to exist, just not as many).
Like I mentioned, they seem to be shying away from duplex units. Almost all double deck Shinkansen are gone. I'm gonna check the MAX, but I think it's days are numbered if not already extinct.
After looking into it, there are two services out of Tokyo that use all-duplex trainsets. One is 12 cars and the other is 10 cars. Both have a max speed of 240 kph, which is really slow compared to other Shinkansen lines.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

cpotisch

Conductor
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
7,511
Location
Brooklyn, NY
There were only 2 double deckers out of 16 cars, and I was on the upper of one. I don't recall the configuration of the other three levels. The downstairs may have had Green compartments. Wow. It's been 30 years since I did that.
How did those two double deckers not result in an incredible amount of drag? They're taller than the single levels, right?
 

Devil's Advocate

Conductor
Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
12,440
Location
Texas
There were only 2 double deckers out of 16 cars, and I was on the upper of one. I don't recall the configuration of the other three levels. The downstairs may have had Green compartments. Wow. It's been 30 years since I did that.
How did those two double deckers not result in an incredible amount of drag? They're taller than the single levels, right?
In order for a double decker train to be viable from drag coefficient standpoint it only needs to compare favorably with two single deck trains.
 

VentureForth

Conductor
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
5,996
Location
West Melbourne, FL
It's all about the front end. Yes, there is more frontal area. On an airplane, the fuselage has an element of lift by acting sort of as an airflow. This cancels out a little bit of drag. Otherwise, nothing can't overcome drag with plenty of power.

These do the same.

Worth noting that the E1 and E4 both have max speeds of 240 kph, regardless of 12, 10 or 6 cars.

Back to the TGV, I'm fascinated that these have top speeds of 270 and 320 kph. Having power cars vs every car powered lengthens the train, offsetting capacity. But apparently the big difference here is the 6.72 MW vs 9.28 MW power output. In these two cases, though, the E4 Shinkansen carries 817 passengers vs 508 on the TGV.

It's all trades. Power, speed, passenger count, train configuration. Whatever meets the business case.

FWIW, the top speed Sanyo Shinkansen (the extension of the Tokaido) is the N700 at 300 kph. For a single level, 16-car-powered train, it's power output is 17.08 MW! But it also carries 1,323 people. So, 2.6x the capacity of the TGV, with only 1.84x the power.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

cpotisch

Conductor
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
7,511
Location
Brooklyn, NY
There were only 2 double deckers out of 16 cars, and I was on the upper of one. I don't recall the configuration of the other three levels. The downstairs may have had Green compartments. Wow. It's been 30 years since I did that.
How did those two double deckers not result in an incredible amount of drag? They're taller than the single levels, right?
In order for a double decker train to be viable from drag coefficient standpoint it only needs to compare favorably with two single deck trains.
Yes, but a full double decker train is likely going to have be more aerodynamically efficient than a single deck train with a couple bi-level cars, because there's significant drag where the bi-levels extend above the other cars. It's like how the Caltrans Siemens Chargers have a smooth spoiler at the back since they pull bi-levels a couple feet taller than itelf.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top