Observations from the Piedmont Corridor

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When the Heartland Flyer began service, at least one of the non-Cafe Coaches had a couple basic vending machines on the lower level. But when the State found out, the vending machines had to go as the State contract calls for manned food service. Now I wouldn't mind a vending area, even on a long distance train; that way you can get a drink or snack during the night when the Cafe is closed, or if you don't want to trek to the Cafe.

Just make sure the machines are kept stocked and in clean working order!
 
It seems to me that the biggest obstacle to vending machines would the heavy handed unions. They seem to be scared that vending is going to replace all manned cafe service. While there are some in Congress who wouldn't mind that, I don't see it happening. A machine can't replace hot food service, or food that needs to be fresh. The cafe isn't always open, and the demand for food transcends normal hours. They are losing revenue by not offering vending.
 
It seems to me that the biggest obstacle to vending machines would the heavy handed unions. They seem to be scared that vending is going to replace all manned cafe service. While there are some in Congress who wouldn't mind that, I don't see it happening. A machine can't replace hot food service, or food that needs to be fresh. The cafe isn't always open, and the demand for food transcends normal hours. They are losing revenue by not offering vending.
Once again, once a program (staffed dining facilities) is cut or reduced, it will only continue to get cut more. Manned cafe cars will be first to go, followed quickly by dining cars. If you don't think this is possible, you are being naive. If you want to ride long distance at the mercy of vending machines (which will be prone to break downs since they are on a moving vehicle, not sitting in a stationary room), be my guest. You do realize that proposals have been introduced in Congress to do away with food service on Amtrak? (And that a TEXAS congressman has introuduced a bill that will effectively do away with the Sunset? Enjoy your bag of chips at 3 a.m.

By the way, what's all the anger about "heavy handed unions." don't you think people should have good paying jobs? Or are you in favor of the continued weakening of the middle class, where we'll all be working for minimum wage (or less) in order to keep the 1% rolling in money?
 
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Besides the irrelevant political attack, I think you're being a bit of a fear monger. The dining cars aren't going anywhere. The cafe cars aren't going anywhere. All I've suggested is that they should consider installing vending machines on trains that don't already have food service, and potentially on some LD trains to expand the food options of passengers. I NEVER suggested that vending should displace manned food service. I think that's a terrible idea, and it would kill Amtrak as a viable means of LD transportation.

I don't know why people always feel the need to drag politics in around here. I love to talk about politics, but here, I just want to talk about trains. Sure, Amtrak is a political creation, but that doesn't mean that our discussions should revolve around that, all the time.
 
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Oh yes the old vending machine debate!

what exactly are we losing by having vending machines replace the cafe cars? the microwavable food from the cafe car is not good at all... i suppose I will miss my cheese and cracker tray. But all the snacks and drinks would be available 24 hours a day.

As for the worry that a machine will break down or run out of stock.. well the cafe' car seems to close whenever the attendant feels like it and the cafe' car seems to always be running out of something.

I'm not suggesting the cafe' car disappear, but really how much class is that thing adding?

Alcoholic Drinks would be missed on the long distance trains.
 
By the way, what's all the anger about "heavy handed unions." don't you think people should have good paying jobs? Or are you in favor of the continued weakening of the middle class, where we'll all be working for minimum wage (or less) in order to keep the 1% rolling in money?
I don't think anyone affiliated with Amtrak is in the 1%. And, as a manager or a business owner, I'm for hiring what I need to maintain a certain level of service. My job isn't to ensure that people have good wages. My job would be to ensure that the wages paid for hire are compatible with the value they add to my business.
I think it was the Hiawathas that lost their trolley cart service because it was costing them a quarter of a million dollars for two/four employees who weren't coming close to making that in revenue. Vending machines would most likely be extremely welcomed on those trains now - even in such a heavily unionized territory.
 
Modern vending machines can dispense just about anything (even pet Fish) including a wide variety of good tasting food. In no way should on board machines replace the Cafe but should supplement it. For example if my stomach suddenly growls in the middle of the night for a Pizza, I can head to the vending area and get one. Handled correctly, the machines can actually feed more revenue into Amtrak, but getting the suits to see and understand this is a different story.

In most cases vending machines are owned, stocked and maintained by an outside party, often the product supplier/manufacturer. Again, if Amtrak adds these, it is ESSENTIAL they be kept stocked, cleaned and working.
 
For example if my stomach suddenly growls in the middle of the night for a Pizza, I can head to the vending area and get one.
I wouldn't, if I were you. Vending machines, for practical purposes, can only contain non-perishable items. No one can guarantee the necessary continuity of refrigeration.

About 30 years ago I took the turbo from Rhinecliff, NY, to Grand Central. I had a tuna fish sandwich from a vending machine on that train. The next day, with abdominal stress, I "was afraid I was going to die." And later, "I was afraid I wasn't." Just kidding. I did get severely sick.

Obviously the "expiration date" had passed or else the car was subjected to a prolonged period without power.

jb
 
Gated platforms....... the NC stations with gates opened by attendants are only those stations which have been renovated or placed in repurposed vintage buildings (Durham and Burlington) over the past 10-12 years. (exceptions being those on CSX lines outside the 'Piedmont Corridor'.) Maybe there was some policy in effect at the time the renovation work was done.

Totally off-topic - last month my wife, daughter, and I spent two weeks in Germany and several other European countries. All of our travel (except for a French Bustitution from Chambery to Geneva and a short sightseeing junket in Bavaria) was by train. I was amazed at how open the rail stations of Europe are....... Munich especially...... where I spent a couple of hours photographing trains at Central Station just wandering up and down platforms as I wished with no intervention. Pretty much a 'use at your own risk' society.
 
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For example if my stomach suddenly growls in the middle of the night for a Pizza, I can head to the vending area and get one.
I wouldn't, if I were you. Vending machines, for practical purposes, can only contain non-perishable items. No one can guarantee the necessary continuity of refrigeration.

About 30 years ago I took the turbo from Rhinecliff, NY, to Grand Central. I had a tuna fish sandwich from a vending machine on that train. The next day, with abdominal stress, I "was afraid I was going to die." And later, "I was afraid I wasn't." Just kidding. I did get severely sick.

Obviously the "expiration date" had passed or else the car was subjected to a prolonged period without power.

jb
I don't buy the "it didn't work 30 years ago, so it won't work now" idea. Certainly, we should make sure that those lessons are learned and we're preparing for the proper contingencies (such as making sure temperature is controlled.) They shouldn't be deployed if those problems aren't solved.

But if they are solved (or "solved," anyways) I'm all for giving them another run. Especially where no other options exist on the current train (Hiawatha, Keystones, etc.)
 
For example if my stomach suddenly growls in the middle of the night for a Pizza, I can head to the vending area and get one.
I wouldn't, if I were you. Vending machines, for practical purposes, can only contain non-perishable items. No one can guarantee the necessary continuity of refrigeration.

About 30 years ago I took the turbo from Rhinecliff, NY, to Grand Central. I had a tuna fish sandwich from a vending machine on that train. The next day, with abdominal stress, I "was afraid I was going to die." And later, "I was afraid I wasn't." Just kidding. I did get severely sick.

Obviously the "expiration date" had passed or else the car was subjected to a prolonged period without power.

jb
Good point I didn't even think about as HEP drops are common, though the Lounge and Diner seem to handle them within reason. Perhaps the supplier of the machines can provide a battery backup provision and a lock out mechanism that shuts the machine down if the temp goes too high for too long.
 
By the way, what's all the anger about "heavy handed unions." don't you think people should have good paying jobs? Or are you in favor of the continued weakening of the middle class, where we'll all be working for minimum wage (or less) in order to keep the 1% rolling in money?
I'm not sure how anger at "heavy handed unions" means they don't like good-paying jobs. I tend to think the union sometimes gets in the way of a good idea with Amtrak; for example, my understanding is that Amtrak/NY tried having Subway on the intra-NY trains but the union (or workers quasi-encouraged by the union) basically scared the workers off. Instead, there's now no food service on those trains. To me, that's a heavy-handed union.

The world continues to change, and we shouldn't stop automation of jobs or stop technical progress just because a few people may lose their jobs. We should use machines as efficiently as possible, even if it means some people might have to find new jobs. People should be paid an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. But jobs that machines can do well should be done by machines, so that our human labor can do those things which machines can't.
 
Listen, the problem with vending machines is the best of them have an even worse disposition than the worst Amtrak LSA.
 
There's a place for vending machines. Actually, there are two places:
(1) As a "capacity assist" and/or to help prevent excessively long walks on massive trains. The best example that comes to mind is a hypothetical 12-car Regional: The train is probably a bit too long for a single cafe to handle things (someone is likely to end up with a 7-8 car "walk") but adding a second full OBS car is likely a waste, and staffing both cars would be expensive. You could make a case for two half-and-half cars (i.e. half-BC, half-cafe seating), one at each end of the train, but a solution of putting a coach-with-vending-machines towards the "wrong" end of the train is also a workable fix. Ignoring the length-of-walk issue, if you could add another 2-3 coaches to some LD trains the issue of too many passengers trying to use the single cafe car becomes an issue. I'm not sure how a single SSL would cope with, say, 500-600 passengers trying to use it; some vending machines at the far end of the train could take some pressure off said car.

(2) To provide some basic OBS on trains that either are lightly-used or have relatively short runs. NC is a good example of this; the Hoosier State would be another case. Probably the best cases, though, would be the Albany-terminating Empire Service trains (even though their total run is probably long enough to justify a full cafe in many cases) and the Hiawathas (where the 90-minute run isn't long enough to justify it). For reference, I'd informally draw the line at two hours or three coaches.

Basically, I see vending machines as an alternative only to "no service" (which is an option in some cases); other than that, their main purpose IMHO is to provide an assist to the cafe car.
 
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Whereas I've already mentioned that I'm game for vending machines to supplement a cafe (increased supply, variety, and perhaps *gasp* revenue), I would have no problem seeing them replace the cafe car attendant.

As for expiration and spoilage, we are talking perhaps a maximum of 18 hours for something like the Palmetto, but more likely runs of less than half a day. It'd be hard to spoil something like that. Even over two days if service were performed at one end. Don't forget that loss of refrigeration also means loss of operability. If you lose power to your home from a thunderstorm for a couple of hours, do you throw everything away?

And as for the disposition of a vending machine's mood, I've never had to sit and listen to our complain about how it had to get up at 3 am for a 24 hour shift.
 
Bear in mind that the Piedmonts run end-to-end in 3 hours 10 minutes, with the published objective of 2 hours 30 minutes. Many or most of the passengers are not riding all the way between Raleigh and Charlotte; they start or end their journeys at an intermediate station. In the beginning NCDOT did operate a food service concession on the Piedmonts, but this was abandoned quickly. There just isn't enough demand, even when the trains are full.

As late as the 1990s, Boylan-Fetner was signaled for directional running only: westbound on the ex-SAL (jointed rail) and eastbound on the ex-Southern (welded rail). Since 2000, the CSX track was relaid with welded rail, the interlocking at Fetner was redesigned, and signals were added to allow running on either track in either direction. But CSX operational rules apply to both tracks.

I'm not 100% certain but I believe access to the platform is also controlled at Charlotte (tunnel to tracks), Kannapolis (although easy to circumvent), High Point (elevator to tracks), and Cary (easy to circumvent).

People with experience in commercial litigation know that indemnification or hold-harmless agreements can be a quagmire. Better to prevent liability in the first place.
 
And as for the disposition of a vending machine's mood, I've never had to sit and listen to our complain about how it had to get up at 3 am for a 24 hour shift.
There's an episode of Babylon 5 where an AI with that disposition (voiced by Harlan Ellison) got put in charge of the station which comes to mind.
 
All I can tell you is I have punched a lot more vending machines than Amtrak LSAs.
Well, vending machines don't sue or call 911 when punched. ;)

You know, when all is said and done, my wife's family is from China Grove/Landis/Kannapolis/Salisbury. It won't hurt my feelings one bit to retire to that area and be near good, supported long distance passenger rail service. Maybe even volunteer rebuilding steamers at the Spencer shops.
 
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Some do set off sirens however. Like the parking vendor at Little Silver. It didn't like my steel toed boot. I didn't like that it ate my money and didnt print a ticket.
 
In the past couple months I've ridden both the Downeaster and Piedmont service. End to end trip times are the same: about 3 hours 20 min. The Downeaster has a cafe car with tables and an excellent menu. Many 'Made in Maine' products that looked delicious. But, the cars were slightly tired Am I cars while the Piedmont cars had huge windows and were an excellent example of how old equipment can be nicely refurbished. So, A+ for Piedmont cars, and C- for Downeaster cars. While I had just a snack in both I would i would reverse those ratings for food service - but certainly vending machines are a great alternative to no food! The Downeaster attendant was very friendly as were the trains crews on all trains. Both cases are good examples of how the states can do a better job of tailoring short haul service to meet their needs than Amtrak with one size fits all. Stations on both routes were also nicely done but with the refurbishing of old buildings the Piedmont stations were more attractive. One idea I liked in Maine: at both Freeport and Brunswick the station was 'staffed' by very friendly folks who also assisted with the visitor center in the same buidling.

Also in Maine, the platforms were raised in the middle and standard low level on either end. The conductor told me between Portland and Boston one conductor works the high level while the other works the low. On the short hop with lighter loads between Portland and Brunswick, one conductor works only the high level platform.
 
I'm thinking it's more of a liability issue since we all know that if somebody gets injured by an NS train, NS is going to get sued - no matter whose fault it is.
Failing to provide access to (and more importantly, from) the platforms can actually *create* serious liability issues under certain circumstances. People trapped on platforms have a very strong incentive to cross the rails at grade. When there are really heavy passenger loads, waiting room overcrowding becomes an issue and distributing the passenger load to the platforms is usually the best way to avoid liability for that (since most modern platforms are wide and have lots of waiting space, while most waiting rooms are cramped and tiny).

Controlled access to the platforms, in the sense of locking them until the train arrives, is a solution looking for a problem. Sure, tell people not to go on the platform unless they're a ticketed passenger or assisting a ticketed passenger, but leave it at that.

Every real railway system understands how to do this. Platforms may be locked up during periods when there will be no trains for many hours, but that's not what we're talking about here. What we're witnessing is mindless airline mimicry, exacerbated by post-9/11 security theater.
 
When I was growing up northwest of Chicago the platforms of the various Chicago & Northwestern Commuter Stations were GREAT places to hang out and watch trains and the Station Agents never had any problems with behaved kids spending time out there so long as we stayed off the tracks. Some of the Agents would even come out and visit with us or send us home with Timetables and other goodies. No one ever worried about security then.

I was always amazed during inbound Rush how commuters knew EXACTLY where to stand in groups 85 feet apart and never have to move more than a couple inches left or right for the doors.
 
All I can tell you is I have punched a lot more vending machines than Amtrak LSAs.
Well, vending machines don't sue or call 911 when punched. ;)
But I can see vending machines in the future equipped with a built-in camera to record videos when someone hits, pushes, or otherwise abuses the vending machine triggered by an accelerometer or excessive noise levels (for when people yell at it). The video gets automatically uploaded and if the operator of the vending machine determines the machine was damaged, then forward the video to the local police. Yes, it is very big brotherist, but that may be an inevitable result of the falling cost of cameras, sensors, embedded computers, and wireless links. Just a cheerful thought for the day. ;)
 
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