On Board Chain of Command

[tonys96]

I asked this question in a prior thread, but it might have gotten lost in the arguement over Kevin Smith :unsure:

Suppose there is a reason to want to speak with someone higher up the food chain than the coach car attendant (or sleeping car attendant, though I have yet to get to ride in a SC), for whatever reason, can this be done, and if so how?

I guess my question is really, what is the "pecking order" while on board?

And on a different note............is there a thread here that defines some of the abbreviations y'all use? The one that always gets me is EB......my brain knows you are talking about Empire Builder, but my mind thinks East Bound........... And I dont know what lsa, and many of the other ones are, but am slowly learning from how they are used in context. Just wonder if there may be a thread with these already listed.

As always, thanks for your help!

 

[Steve4031]

LSA=lead service attendant in dining car. I think this is also the title of the lounge car guy on short hall trains too

AC=Assistant conductor or airconditioning

SCA = sleeping car attendant.

The conductor is the person in charge of safe operation of the train. He also handles tickets and upgrades. I think the assistant conductor can do tickets too though I am not sure. The conductor can choose to have disorderly passengers removed from the train.

I don't think their is a pecking order among Amtrak employees. What happens in practice is usually the same groups of employees travel together, and know each other. So they usually support each other and have the same point of view. Some of them, like my sca on the Texas Eagle, will try to talk some sense into a rude employee. Though he meant well, the other employee escalated her rudeness towards me. In this case, there is little recourse but wait quietly until the end of the trip and then write a letter. If you create too much of a stink, or become involved in an argument with an employee, you will usually be found at fault. It is also not a good ideal to threaten to write a letter to get them fired. I made this threat once, and the conductor handled the disagreement very professionally. Though he was not pleased with my behavior. The other employee never improved either. So IMHO, complaining on the train rarely causes a change for that trip.

I am explaining what I think, not what I know factually is the chain of command.

I do know that conductors and assistant conductors have a lot of hidden duties in addition to collecting tickets and addressing passenger concerns. One of them always repeats signals to the engineer, and then they also communicate with the dispater to get slow orders and other information. If the train sets of a hot box detector, they have to get off the train in any kind of weather to check the train. I once saw them do this is a torrential down pour in New Mexico. Sometimes they have to get off in any kind of weather to hand throw switches. All of this relates to the safe operation of the train. So IMHO, the easiest thing for them to do to solve a problem is to threaten to put somebody off the train, and then do it. So it is better not to draw the attention of the conductor.

This system has its flaws. I enjoy riding trains, and try to ignore the ignorance of some of the employees. Usually, being polite, and knowing the procedures eliminates most problems. Traveling in a sleeper eliminates the need to deal with control freak coach attendants. I think Amtrak's coach product had declined, and I avoid it as much as possible by going BC or first class. Hope tis helps.

 

[rrdude]

On ALL trains. The Conductor is the top banana.

Assistant Conductor(s) next. These guys/gals are called the "Train Crew" or "T/E" crew. (Train & Engine) Conductors only work certain segments or divisions over the host railroad(s), and on LD trains will change many times on a multiple-day trip.

The On-Board Service employees (LSA-Diner, LSA-Cafe, Dining Car Staff, Chef, Food Specialist, TAS, & TAC) generally work from point-to-point, but may on occasion "turn" en route, and catch, the opposite train back to the station they started from.

According to the Amtrak manual, (and from my loooooooooooong ago experience) the LSA-Diner "supervises the On-Board Services crew, and the operation of the Dining Car."

So if you have a problem with a dining car server, Train Attendant-Coach, or Train Attendant-Sleeper, the first place you should go (assuming you have already tried talking to the offending employee) would be to the LSA-Diner. Now, that doesn't mean they will necessarily help you or interject into your situation, but one should start there.

If you have done that, and are not getting any satisfaction, I would seek out the conductor, and explain the situation. At the same time (depends of course upon the severity of the "infraction" or rudeness........) I would place a call to Amtrak's Customer Service Department.

Goes without saying, get names, get names, get names. And be prepared to concisely report the facts.

 

[tonys96]

Thanks. Any other info about this will be appreciated, too.

And let's not always think a supervisor is only needed if there is a problem! I, for one, feel that if I think it is needed to point out some problem whenever necessary, I also have the obligation to point out something good, like an exemplary employee, service, or experience, when it should be done.

My old Mama used to say "If you throw brickbats, you must also know how to throw orchids"

 

[Steve4031]

IMHO, that explains the problem.

The most problems occur in the dining car. If the LSA is a problem, then their attitude is going to drift to and affect other employees in most situations. On my Texas Eagle trip, the LSA was pathetic. She let an older women push her around all over the diner. All she could do is to roll her eyes at her.

IF an LSA has a problem, what recourse does the LSA have against that employee.

 

[zephyr17]

My experience is that while the conductor is technically in charge of everything on the train, they generally don't interfere with the OBS crew. Especially since they change enroute, and the OBS crew goes the distance. So, if it is a customer service issue (as opposed to a safety issue, which the conductor is most definately in charge of and responsible for), I think the "complaint" chain is LSA, then customer service.

JMHO.

 

[Tumbleweed]

I really think that AMTRAK should periodically utilize "Mystery Shoppers" (if they don't already) and have them complete a report on each employee anonymously.....sneaky, I know, but very effective documentation. And I wish to be the first to volunteer if it involves free travel.....

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I really think that AMTRAK should periodically utilize "Mystery Shoppers" (if they don't already) and have them complete a report on each employee anonymously.....sneaky, I know, but very effective documentation. And I wish to be the first to volunteer if it involves free travel.....

I agree that the 'mystery shopper' concept is a good idea for Amtrak. It might be sneaky, but it puts it into the minds of the employees that they never know when there might be someone 'taking notes' on their job performance - good, bad or ugly. It is way too easy for them to put on a good show when their supervisor is aboard, as they obviously know it, and they would be fools to do too bad a job then.

A number of years ago I worked in the kitchens of several country inns. Every so often we would have food critics show up - pre-announced! Of course they got a great meal with great service, and we got a great review. It mattered little to them, or us, that the only one who lost out in this quid pro quo deal was the customer. :huh:

 

[amamba]

I actually do a lot of mystery shopping - hotels, fine dining, etc - and I agree that amtrak should utilize a service like this. What happens when I do a hotel, for example, is that I stay for two nights, evaluate the housekeeping, front desk staff, concierge and any dining facilities at the hotel. Then I normally have to fill out an extensive report comprised of free form narrative and a checklist/form. I normally get paid $50 - $100/per night of the evaluation plus the credit card charges for the stay get reimbursed reversed, or depending on the company, instead they will send me a reimbursement check. I know some mystery shopping companies that hire the evaluators/mystery shoppers for cruise lines, too.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

These folks would have to be deep undercover trained to do nothing to possibly alert someone of their actual intentions. They would purchase their tickets through normal channels and show up representing all possible walks of life. For example, the scruffy guy in his mid 20s with the backpack seated half way back in the 2nd Coach is carefully noting the activities and demeanor of the Coach Attendant, who in this case is doing a good job. Earlier he noted the Conductor refused to offer an upgrade to a Roomette to another pax when he knows several are available. Meanwhile, on another train half way across the country, the charming older couple in Bedroom C has already made note of the gruffy behavior of the LSA, not to mention the scarcity of their Sleeping Car Attendant.

 

[Steve4031]

I think they could do something like a voucher program. They could randomly select passengers who book through the website. The passenger would be notified at the time of puchase that they would have the opportunity to evaluate their trip by completing a detailed 15 minutes survey after their trip. They would be given the info ahead if time so they know what to do. Once they completed the survey they could receive a voucher towards future travel.

 

[Ryan]

I've gotten surveys after several trips that I've taken, and the door is always open to provide unsolicited feedback to the folks at 60 Mass Ave.

I'm not sure that the problem a lack of information flowing to Amtrak.

 

[rrdude]

I think they could do something like a voucher program. They could randomly select passengers who book through the website. The passenger would be notified at the time of puchase that they would have the opportunity to evaluate their trip by completing a detailed 15 minutes survey after their trip. They would be given the info ahead if time so they know what to do. Once they completed the survey they could receive a voucher towards future travel.

I too was a paid mystery shopper for several years, and the companies that hire consumer to do this, usually require a "minimum" of training. There are several different levels of training, (Silver, Gold, etc.) and the more training that you have done, the more "shops" you will be assigned.
I don't think issuing vouchers to "the general public" on a random basis would be of much benefit to the survey company, as objectivity, attention to detail, experience, etc., etc., could not be controlled at all.

 

[had8ley]

Rumor has it there are Amtrak employees called "Spotters." In my opinion they could save that money by requiring those responsible for each individual LD train, the On Board Service Managers, to unglue themselves from their desks and climb aboard. :angry:

 

[rrdude]

Rumor has it there are Amtrak employees called "Spotters." In my opinion they could save that money by requiring those responsible for each individual LD train, the On Board Service Managers, to unglue themselves from their desks and climb aboard. :angry:

But sadly, few and far between, and years ago when I worked on board, it was generally known who they were, and when they were riding. As many of these spotters came from the ranks of the OBS staff...........(theory was, they could best objectively write up reports about what was, and what wasn't done correctly)

 

[Bob Dylan]

Rumor has it there are Amtrak employees called "Spotters." In my opinion they could save that money by requiring those responsible for each individual LD train, the On Board Service Managers, to unglue themselves from their desks and climb aboard. :angry:

I agree Jay! The problem is that these so called "Managers", based on my experience, treat such duty as a break from the office! They eat in the Diner, they talk with a few Sleeper pax and people in the Lounge, then head for their Bedroom(usually A! :lol: ) to "do paperwork" and get some rest! There is a woman from CHI that rides the Eagle often to STL, and she follows this exact pattern everytime! Ive never seen anyone do this on the Sunset/SWC or Zephyr, just the CL/Eagle/CS and the Empire Builder! (not too many complaints on this Route except for the OTP!!!)Not sure about the CONO or the other Eastern trains??? :unsure:

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Now the Manager/Supervisor of the Coast Starlight is the exact opposite as recently I enjoyed visiting with her on 14 as she inspected her train between LAX and OAK. She made a point to wander the entire train and visit with Crew and Pax and ask how they were enjoying their trip and if there was anything Amtrak could do to make it better. She was extremely professional and polite and you could easily tell she enjoyed her work and was proud of her train (and she about did a backflip wanting my Amtrak T-Shirt).

We got to talking about the future of the Pacific Parlour Cars and she said because of folks like us helping her stay in touch with Top Brass about wanting to keep these cars, there are now no plans to dispose of them in the near future.

I wish Amtrak had a hundred more like her!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Now the Manager/Supervisor of the Coast Starlight is the exact opposite as recently I enjoyed visiting with her on 14 as she inspected her train between LAX and OAK. She made a point to wander the entire train and visit with Crew and Pax and ask how they were enjoying their trip and if there was anything Amtrak could do to make it better. She was extremely professional and polite and you could easily tell she enjoyed her work and was proud of her train (and she about did a backflip wanting my Amtrak T-Shirt). We got to talking about the future of the Pacific Parlour Cars and she said because of folks like us helping her stay in touch with Top Brass about wanting to keep these cars, there are now no plans to dispose of them in the near future. I wish Amtrak had a hundred more like her!

Absolutely! The entire CS trip was a class-act all the way and really showed what Amtrak is capable of when they have a quality crew with a customer-focused mindset. If only I could remember her name...

 

[AlanB]

Rumor has it there are Amtrak employees called "Spotters." In my opinion they could save that money by requiring those responsible for each individual LD train, the On Board Service Managers, to unglue themselves from their desks and climb aboard. :angry:

How many times do I have to repeat this?

Now, turning to one of the underlying themes currently running through this topic, let me once again repeat something that I have said many, many times before.

Amtrak Management Does Ride the Trains!

We currently have one now retired member who did that for a good portion of his career at Amtrak and we have one member who currently does it. Is there a manager on every train every day? No. But they are out riding the trains.

The problem isn't that management isn't riding the trains! The problem is that the employees know who the managers are. So when there is a manager around, the bad employees do their jobs. When there is no manager around, they don't. It's that simple.

 

[haolerider]

Rumor has it there are Amtrak employees called "Spotters." In my opinion they could save that money by requiring those responsible for each individual LD train, the On Board Service Managers, to unglue themselves from their desks and climb aboard. :angry:

How many times do I have to repeat this?

Now, turning to one of the underlying themes currently running through this topic, let me once again repeat something that I have said many, many times before.

Amtrak Management Does Ride the Trains!

We currently have one now retired member who did that for a good portion of his career at Amtrak and we have one member who currently does it. Is there a manager on every train every day? No. But they are out riding the trains.

The problem isn't that management isn't riding the trains! The problem is that the employees know who the managers are. So when there is a manager around, the bad employees do their jobs. When there is no manager around, they don't. It's that simple.

Absolutely correct Alan. Many people are asking for the return of the On Board Chiefs, however with the exception of a very few, those employees were actually union members and tended to not really enforce the rules against their fellow union members. Not all of them , but enough to ruin the program and get it cancelled. On the Superliners, there was even a special Chief's room that was larger than the normal crew room. Too bad it ended that way, because it could be a great way to enhance customer service - almost like the Red Coats at the airports with Delta.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

How many times do I have to repeat this?

How many times do we have to point out that it's NOT working?

 

[Ryan]

How many times do I have to repeat this?

How many times do we have to point out that it's NOT working?

Seconded. I think that a non-union Chief of OBS position on each train (along with the revision of the Service Standards Manual to realistic policies) would GREATLY increase the customer service and even out the inconsistencies that are the hallmark of Amtrak service.

I don't doubt that some managers do get out there and ride the trains. Maybe I'm just old school, but a manager is responsible for knowing their people and is responsible for the performance of those people at all times - whether the manager is present or not. Someone that only performs when the boss is around can't fly under the radar of a good manager indefinitely. Complaints to Amtrak (which I also mentioned as valuable) help, but unless there's a receptive manager on the other end that (1)actually receives those complaints and (2)is interested in using them to help get rid of the dead weight, all the complaining in the world isn't going to do a bit of good.

Publish REASONABLE standards, give them employees all the tools needed to execute them, and then enforce them with an iron fist. The results could be amazing.

 

[rrdude]

I can certainly attest to Alan B.'s comment that "...Amtrak management does ride the trains......"

I my recent trip on the Crescent, I had a very interesting meal with a Director Of Product Development...........

He shared virtually ALL of the frustrations that most of us at AU post about, often.

 

[oldtimer]

How many times do I have to repeat this?

How many times do we have to point out that it's NOT working?

Seconded. I think that a non-union Chief of OBS position on each train (along with the revision of the Service Standards Manual to realistic policies) would GREATLY increase the customer service and even out the inconsistencies that are the hallmark of Amtrak service.

I don't doubt that some managers do get out there and ride the trains. Maybe I'm just old school, but a manager is responsible for knowing their people and is responsible for the performance of those people at all times - whether the manager is present or not. Someone that only performs when the boss is around can't fly under the radar of a good manager indefinitely. Complaints to Amtrak (which I also mentioned as valuable) help, but unless there's a receptive manager on the other end that (1)actually receives those complaints and (2)is interested in using them to help get rid of the dead weight, all the complaining in the world isn't going to do a bit of good.

Publish REASONABLE standards, give them employees all the tools needed to execute them, and then enforce them with an iron fist. The results could be amazing.

As a point of information in the past Amtrak hired a "train Manager" to ride trains (25 positions I think) and the American Railway Supervisors Association, the union that represented the former train chiefs, Filed a grievance that stated these were the equivalent to the chief's position and therefore should be filled by former chiefs and should be union positions. Amtrak denied this grievance. ARSA appealed through the internal process and finally outside Amtrak to an impartial arbitrator for a binding ruling. The ruling was that the position of any supervisor of OBS personnel is a union position by labor law.

It is also a fact that Amtrak uses "spotters" or mystery guests to observe and report. I also know for a fact that not all of these came from the OBS ranks. Many of these are current or retired Amtrak or other railroad employees who have been given a crash course in what to look for. They are reimbursed for tickets and expenses and ride in coach or sleepers on LD trains and also ride corridor trains.

 

[EB_OBS]

The Customer Service Managers did exactly the same job on-board as the OBS Chiefs had done. Amtrak was even using the exact same training materials for them. That's why Amtrak lost the grievance. The contract states that you can't eliminate union jobs and simply replace them with non-union personnel doing the exact same job. It's in the contract and I suppose that that is a standard clause in most union contracts.

There was much misinformation and a lot of finger pointing when the OBS Chiefs were removed from service. Having spent time with many former and current OBS supervisors and Amtrak managers I can tell you that there were many failures and bad apples on both sides of the equation, management and union supervisors.

Good supervisors can motivate, encourage, train and coach an employee to do a better job, however with absolutely no disciplinary capability problem employees continue to be problems and a major frustration for the good supervisors. It's up to the service and train managers, salaried Amtrak managers to initiate discipline. There were plenty of both good and bad OBS Chiefs and there were plenty of good Chiefs whose managers did nothing about the problems that were reported to them.

In my opinion Amtrak has made some progress in increasing OBS supervisors authority but the program has stagnated and the original 20 ARASA supervisors that were brought back in 2008 have not been increased and no additional training has been done. Only a few of them ride trains full-time some are in static crew base or yard positions.

Right now all ARASA OBS supervisors are required to attend all the same classes as salaried managers do. All classes about counseling and coaching, harassment and EEOC and discipline etc. However, other than writing up an employee and passing it along to the train manager an ARASA OBS supervisor still cannot initiate discipline. They can pull someone out of service though and that is the usual process if continuous performance failures occur enroute.