Overbooking

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Shotgun7

Service Attendant
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
234
Location
Astoria, OR
As I look through the possible days when I can head back home from the north next week, I'm realizing that EVERYTHING is completely sold out, that being both the Silver Meteor and Star from NYP between the days of August 6th-9th. I can always possibly stay a few days extra, or, dare I say it.... FLY, but it would be so much easier to catch a train back between these days. Is it possible to have them book you in the system and just be placed in the lounge car, sort of on "standby" in case a real seat opens up along the way?
 
Is it possible to have them book you in the system and just be placed in the lounge car, sort of on "standby" in case a real seat opens up along the way?
Amtrak only offers Reserved Seating, which means the number of tickets never exceeds the number of seats. Plus, from other threads here, the lounge car will be filling by Sleeping-car-wannabes.

BTW, your dates are now within the 2-week window which means the handicapped accessible bedroom in the Sleepers, is open for anyone. Maybe you could snag one of those?

Anyway, keep checking. If there is a cancellation, those seats or room simply become available to the first lucky person to book them (and at their original price!).
 
As I look through the possible days when I can head back home from the north next week, I'm realizing that EVERYTHING is completely sold out, that being both the Silver Meteor and Star from NYP between the days of August 6th-9th. I can always possibly stay a few days extra, or, dare I say it.... FLY, but it would be so much easier to catch a train back between these days. Is it possible to have them book you in the system and just be placed in the lounge car, sort of on "standby" in case a real seat opens up along the way?
No, there is no "standby" on the train. They sell as many tickets as there are SEATS or ROOMS available on the train.

Besides, if they do sell you a seat in the lounge car, would you want to ride in there all the was from NYP to MIA (or wherever)? And what's not to say that when you board, you will not take a seat? (Of course you would not do that! :p ) After all, there are no assigned seats on Amtrak, and you do have a ticket!
 
For the record, Amtrak does overbook NEC trains, including Acela. They project the number of last minute cancellations and no-shows (which is a major factor in the NEC due to Amtrak's liberal refund policy) and book some factor over capacity to compensate. Sometimes that works, and sometimes people stand or have to sit in the cafe until seats open.

Another factor in the NEC are the commuter passes: monthly and ten-trip. Commuter pass holders can ride most NEC trains (other than Acela) with no reservation required. Once again, Amtrak tries to project the number of passholders expected for each train, and once again they sometimes are wrong.
 
As I look through the possible days when I can head back home from the north next week, I'm realizing that EVERYTHING is completely sold out, that being both the Silver Meteor and Star from NYP between the days of August 6th-9th. I can always possibly stay a few days extra, or, dare I say it.... FLY, but it would be so much easier to catch a train back between these days. Is it possible to have them book you in the system and just be placed in the lounge car, sort of on "standby" in case a real seat opens up along the way?
I'll tell you what Amtrak once told me under a similar situation. "Call every day to check and see if there has been a cancellation!" You might get lucky. If you do this, on your first call ask what time of the day might be the best to try calling. They told me a particular time, but I forgot the time or the reason why it's best. Good luck!

After thought: After posting I remembered that the time of the day is important because expiring unpaid reservations get updated at a particular time of the day. Guess there's hope for my CRS yet! :p
 
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For the record, Amtrak does overbook NEC trains, including Acela. They project the number of last minute cancellations and no-shows (which is a major factor in the NEC due to Amtrak's liberal refund policy) and book some factor over capacity to compensate. Sometimes that works, and sometimes people stand or have to sit in the cafe until seats open.
Another factor in the NEC are the commuter passes: monthly and ten-trip. Commuter pass holders can ride most NEC trains (other than Acela) with no reservation required. Once again, Amtrak tries to project the number of passholders expected for each train, and once again they sometimes are wrong.
Yes, as I have mentioned on this board I have had to stand on NEC trains before (particularly between New Haven, CT and NY penn station) because there have been no available seats on the train. I have also been on NEC cars when others have had to stand for lack of seats. It gets particularly bad around the holiday season between Thanksgiving and Christmas.
 
Another factor in the NEC are the commuter passes: monthly and ten-trip. Commuter pass holders can ride most NEC trains (other than Acela) with no reservation required. Once again, Amtrak tries to project the number of passholders expected for each train, and once again they sometimes are wrong.
Which areas allow commuter pass holders to ride Amtrak trains? I don't think an MBTA monthly pass would be good for BOS to PVD on a Regional...
 
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I've been successful in getting on sold out trains several times in the past. The trick is to seek out the conductor (before the train leaves the station) and ask if he can sell you a ticket. Most of the time, he will, but he'll warn you that you might have to stand or sit on the floor (or the lounge, if there's room available) for some time.
 
I've been successful in getting on sold out trains several times in the past. The trick is to seek out the conductor (before the train leaves the station) and ask if he can sell you a ticket. Most of the time, he will, but he'll warn you that you might have to stand or sit on the floor (or the lounge, if there's room available) for some time.
There are a lot of stations where this is impossible, though--anywhere they require a value ticket before you get to the platform.
 
For the record, Amtrak does overbook NEC trains, including Acela.
But does that mean Amtrak overbooks the Silvers too?

Remember, the OP is finding the Silvers all sold out, and wants, essentially, to still buy a ticket and sit in the lounge car.
 
Another factor in the NEC are the commuter passes: monthly and ten-trip. Commuter pass holders can ride most NEC trains (other than Acela) with no reservation required. Once again, Amtrak tries to project the number of passholders expected for each train, and once again they sometimes are wrong.
Which areas allow commuter pass holders to ride Amtrak trains? I don't think an MBTA monthly pass would be good for BOS to PVD on a Regional...
In some cases yes. For example a monthly pass holder from VRE can pay a step up fare to ride on an Amtrak train. However, I believe by and large PRR60 was talking about the commuters that buy Amtrak passes to ride on Amtrak trains. Amtrak does sell monthly passes and ten-trip passes to commuters that use Amtrak trains. These passes aren't good on state run commuter services, only on Amtrak trains.
 
Anyone who tells you that Amtrak/Airlines/Hotels/Car Rental companies don't overbook either is very trusting or very naiive. With hotels (because it's what I know when it comes to this topic) the projection is that about 5% of your rooms that are due to check in on a given day will not show (for one reason or another). So when you're forecasting how many rooms you want to reserve your number will vary. There have been many a day when I will walk in oversold by 5-6 rooms and have 5-6 to sell by the end of the night due to cancellations. Sometimes your forecast is right. Sometimes it's dead wrong. But that's forecasting for you. Everyone has limits though. There does have to be some point when you shut the system down and say no more. So even if there are cancellations a day or two in advance its possible Amtrak won't sell those tickets again because that's part of the forecast.
 
Anyone who tells you that Amtrak/Airlines/Hotels/Car Rental companies don't overbook either is very trusting or very naiive. With hotels (because it's what I know when it comes to this topic) the projection is that about 5% of your rooms that are due to check in on a given day will not show (for one reason or another). So when you're forecasting how many rooms you want to reserve your number will vary. There have been many a day when I will walk in oversold by 5-6 rooms and have 5-6 to sell by the end of the night due to cancellations. Sometimes your forecast is right. Sometimes it's dead wrong. But that's forecasting for you.
In the rental car industry, the fleetwide average is about 12%. It ranges from a high of 15% for small cars to a low of 7% for large SUVs and vans (my theory on that is that compact car bookers are more likely to rate-shop, make multiple bookings, and then forget to cancel the ones they don't need, while minivan bookers are pretty tied to that minivan because they need the room and they're not as price-sensitive).

It doesn't help that rental car reservations are generally not guaranteed by a form of payment, so there is nothing for the customer to lose by no-showing (no cancellation penalties like having to pay for the first day like a hotel would do).

Rental car companies therefore plan on overbooking by about 10%, since sitting cars lose money. They overbook more heavily on small cars than large ones, too, for a couple of reasons: one, they can always give the customer a free upgrade to a larger vehicle (whereas if you oversell on a Suburban, what else can you put them into?), and two, it's a way to continue to take reservations from price-sensitive customers (many people ask solely for an economy car, and if the company's sold out on economies, they'll check elsewhere before they check rates on larger vehicles (even if one company's fullsize is cheaper than another company's economy!). However, such practices are now starting to backfire with high gas prices--customers who used to be pleased to get a "free upgrade" to a nice fullsize or SUV are now demanding that the rental company magically snap their fingers and make a Chevy Aveo appear out of thin air, and barring that, paying for the additional gas that the larger vehicle guzzled.

Everyone has limits though. There does have to be some point when you shut the system down and say no more. So even if there are cancellations a day or two in advance its possible Amtrak won't sell those tickets again because that's part of the forecast.
Rental car companies do have a small advantage over hotels in that the availability is a bit more fluid. Rental car availability is not locked in at the end of the night--a wait of even just a few minutes results in more cars being returned, cleaned, and ready to rent. So a rental car company can push the margin a bit more than a hotel can--it will just result in some customers having to wait a few minutes (hopefully not too much more) for a car to become available (whereas a hotel has to tell a reserved guest that they'll have to sleep in the lobby overnight or go elsewhere, since people don't generally vacate rooms at 1am). This can cause fun things with rates: instead of completely blocking reservations or telling walkups that there are no cars available, the rental car company can just keep raising the rates. Eventually, the rates can reach ridiculous proportions: I've seen, in peak season, an economy car go out for $350 per day. The rationale is that for $350 per day, there is a car hidden in some corner somewhere (maybe one that's marked for an oil change that can be delayed) that can be coughed up, or for $350 per day, it's worth getting yelled at by a customer who does have a reservation but was forced to wait 20 minutes for a car because the last one on the lot was just given away to a $350 walkup. Or, the rental agency can offsell a $150 per day reservation to a competitor charging $200 per day and eat the difference because the $350 covers that difference. ($350 a day sounds cruel, but the alternative is to tell the walkup that there are no cars available, and--if everyone else in town is sold out, too--the customer will be left walking, taking taxis, or hitchhiking. The $350 is not a means to screw the customer; it's a way to signal that "we're sold out, but for a tempting offer, we might be willing to take some heat elsewhere to help you out.")

It's all made possible by the no-show factor. If people never changed their travel plans, it'd be easy to run a business in the travel industry--you could plan for exactly 100% occupancy and never have empty rooms or be oversold.

(Not all locations practice this type of yield management, though, and not all cities have tourist seasons with such strong demand...ANC is a very unique market, since intense demand is shoved into a three-month season, outside of which rates are in the single digits and all rental companies basically take a loss...)
 
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With hotels (because it's what I know when it comes to this topic) the projection is that about 5% of your rooms that are due to check in on a given day will not show (for one reason or another). So when you're forecasting how many rooms you want to reserve your number will vary. There have been many a day when I will walk in oversold by 5-6 rooms and have 5-6 to sell by the end of the night due to cancellations. Sometimes your forecast is right. Sometimes it's dead wrong.
I am not so sure this applies to Amtrak.

I don't think Amtrak overbooks rooms, like the roomettes nor bedrooms, the way a hotel can. And the consequences of Amtrak overbooking rooms is a lot more dramatic than for a hotel.

Now there can indeed be cancellations, and therefore, there is hope that a potential passenger can snag one of those cancellations for an otherwise sold out train.
 
In some cases yes. For example a monthly pass holder from VRE can pay a step up fare to ride on an Amtrak train. However, I believe by and large PRR60 was talking about the commuters that buy Amtrak passes to ride on Amtrak trains. Amtrak does sell monthly passes and ten-trip passes to commuters that use Amtrak trains. These passes aren't good on state run commuter services, only on Amtrak trains.
I don't think the Silvers accept passes, even Amtrak's own commuter passes.

Do they?
 
In some cases yes. For example a monthly pass holder from VRE can pay a step up fare to ride on an Amtrak train. However, I believe by and large PRR60 was talking about the commuters that buy Amtrak passes to ride on Amtrak trains. Amtrak does sell monthly passes and ten-trip passes to commuters that use Amtrak trains. These passes aren't good on state run commuter services, only on Amtrak trains.
I don't think the Silvers accept passes, even Amtrak's own commuter passes.

Do they?
My assumption is that only corridor trains would accept passes, and that long-distance trains would not accept passes.

My only point of comparison is that an unreserved Keystone ticket between, say PHL and PAO, will not allow you to take the (all-reserved) Pennsylvanian, even though it runs the same route and in fact occupies a timeslot that a Keystone would otherwise be scheduled in.

I assume the same rule would apply to a Keystone commuter pass (not allowing travel on the Pennsylvanian); and I extrapolate that the same rule--no LD trains--would apply to an NEC commuter pass, even though the NEC Regionals (and Keystones when on the NEC) are all reserved.

Also, the timetables for LD trains (with their board-only southbound, detrain-only northbound stops) are designed to strongly discourage short-distance commuter travel; I assume pass policies would similarly discourage short-distance commuter travel.

That, of course, doesn't provide an answer to the original poster's specific question. But it implies to me that Amtrak only overbooks trains for which it already can't accurately predict ridership (corridor trains geared towards commuters--for which overbooking provides minimal inconvenience), while they probably do not overbook trains which run only once per day (for which overbooking provides a very large inconvenience, and large expenses for Amtrak, if there aren't enough cancellations).
 
In some cases yes. For example a monthly pass holder from VRE can pay a step up fare to ride on an Amtrak train. However, I believe by and large PRR60 was talking about the commuters that buy Amtrak passes to ride on Amtrak trains. Amtrak does sell monthly passes and ten-trip passes to commuters that use Amtrak trains. These passes aren't good on state run commuter services, only on Amtrak trains.
I don't think the Silvers accept passes, even Amtrak's own commuter passes.

Do they?
My assumption is that only corridor trains would accept passes, and that long-distance trains would not accept passes.
On the NEC the Silver's would not accept a "commuter" pass, especially since they are in discharge/receive mode only.

On the other hand, while it probably wouldn't be classed as a commuter pass, the Silver's do take the Florida Rail Pass within Florida. And that does often result in oversold trains. In fact one of the conditions of the pass is that you have to sit in the cafe car if the rest of the train is sold out.
 
That, of course, doesn't provide an answer to the original poster's specific question. But it implies to me that Amtrak only overbooks trains for which it already can't accurately predict ridership (corridor trains geared towards commuters--for which overbooking provides minimal inconvenience), while they probably do not overbook trains which run only once per day (for which overbooking provides a very large inconvenience, and large expenses for Amtrak, if there aren't enough cancellations).
Yea, the original poster was specifically asking about the Silvers.

I am somewhat concerned that we went off on a tangent that really doesn't help answer the original poster's question, or is making the original poster even more confused on their options for most (all?) Silvers being sold out this month.
 
Rooms don't oversell. Everything is hard blocked. You know your Room # when you book. There's no assignment on the day of the departure like there is with the airlines. Coach however is easy to oversell, since no train has pre-assigned seating.
 
Another factor in the NEC are the commuter passes: monthly and ten-trip. Commuter pass holders can ride most NEC trains (other than Acela) with no reservation required. Once again, Amtrak tries to project the number of passholders expected for each train, and once again they sometimes are wrong.
Which areas allow commuter pass holders to ride Amtrak trains? I don't think an MBTA monthly pass would be good for BOS to PVD on a Regional...
In some cases yes. For example a monthly pass holder from VRE can pay a step up fare to ride on an Amtrak train. However, I believe by and large PRR60 was talking about the commuters that buy Amtrak passes to ride on Amtrak trains. Amtrak does sell monthly passes and ten-trip passes to commuters that use Amtrak trains. These passes aren't good on state run commuter services, only on Amtrak trains.
You forget the New Haven->New London commuter pass, which even allows holders to ride one of the Acelas with the pass. (I forget the number, but its on the SLE site)
 
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