Passenger train service to Phoenix Arizona.

[jphjaxfl]

I had a neighbor in Minneapolis who was a retired Southern Pacific Passenger Agent, but from the Twin Cities originally. He said as early as the 1950s he was told by his superiors to do anything he could to keep passengers from booking Espee trains. He was located in a city on the Rock Island the fed into the Golden State Route.

 

[toddinde]

I think restoring the SP would be the better place to start. Tucson and Los Angeles will generate more ridership for a train than overnight service to Chicago especially as such is possible on 421/422. The restoration would also give passenger authorities better opportunities to negotiate more frequency and better OTP.

A fun fact is that Tucson to LA is one of Amtrak’s busiest segments, and that’s with tri-weekly service!

 

[toddinde]

I had a neighbor in Minneapolis who was a retired Southern Pacific Passenger Agent, but from the Twin Cities originally. He said as early as the 1950s he was told by his superiors to do anything he could to keep passengers from booking Espee trains. He was located in a city on the Rock Island the fed into the Golden State Route.

I was a little kid, and my dad took me to 3rd & Townsend station in San Francisco to take a little SP train trip. The agent did everything he could to discourage us including talking about derailments and how it wasn’t safe. What a nasty railroad.

 

[toddinde]

This is an intriguing idea.
Putting track maintenance issues aside, and some routing issues.

Have the westbound SWC drop cars at Williams AZ. Rail cars for Phoenix, and The Grand Canyon. Multi route will spread the cost out. Multi routes will have a crew base large enough to be effective, and efficient sized.

I also like the dropping of rail cars at Kansas City for St Louis service on the eastbound. Of course this becomes a problem with the placement within the train.

Go to the All Aboard Arizona website and see our input into the long distance study.

I just want to put a plug in for the All Aboard Arizona website. Lots of good info there. Mark your calendar for November 4th when we’ll have or Passenger Rail Summit in Phoenix. Please come! It will be a great event with excellent speakers who are in the weeds making this happen. Well have speakers from Amtrak, the state and others. We’re going to get there! We are really close.

I am sure that many of you are well aware that Phoenix Az has not had direct passenger train service since June of 1996 and even before the Sunset Limited was rerouted out of Phoenix the service was inadequate just as it is today with Tri Weekly Service from Los Angeles to New Orleans with connections to Chicago at San Antonio via the Texas Eagle. The Union Pacific Railroad which acquired the Southern Pacific has since taken a portion of the route through Phoenix out of service east of Yuma Az and Amtrak apparently isn't willing to pay to cost asked from Union Pacific to restore the line.
There is another way to restore daily service to Phoenix Az and that in the BNSF "branch line" better known at the "Peavine" line which goes south from the ex Santa Fe mainline at WIlliams Junction Arizona and goes to Phoenix via Wickenburg Az.
Until June of 1969 there was a daily overnight train that connected with various Chicago to California Santa Fe Trains on the mainline. The Train was number 47 southbound and 42 northbound. As a rule there was through sleeping car service to and from Chicago on that train from December 1st through April 25th and the rest of year the both the sleeping car and coach passengers would have to change trains at Williams Junction. Before 1960 the connecting point was in Ash Fork Arizona but due to a major main line relocation the connecting point was changed to Williams Junction.
The seasonal through sleeper service lasted until 1967 and the train itself was discontinued in June of 1969. The train or trains that carried the through sleepers to and from Chicago varied but in the later years the through sleeper would go one way on the San Franciso Chief and the other way on the Chief or the Grand Canyon. Before the mid 50s the through sleeper would usually come and go on the Chief but it sometimes depended on the year that it was.
The train would usually leave Willams Junction at about 1 am and arrive Phoenix around 7 am and going northbound it would usually leave Phoenix around 4 pm and arrive Williams Junction around 9;30 pm. While the Super Chief didn't run through sleepers to Phoenix and they were usually carried on the Chief or the San Francisco Chief it would make perfect sense Amtrak would run a through coach and perhaps a seasonal through sleeper on the Southwest Chief to Phoenix.
In the early days of Amtrak around 1971/72 when the Private Auto Train Corporation also began there was even some talk of Amtrak running an Auto Train to Arizona from the Midwest. Of course it was never seriously pursued.
My main point is that if Amtrak ran either through or connecting service to Phoenix on a daily basis they could probably do it on a faster schedule than the current tri weekly Eagle/Sunset Limited connection.

Please go to the All Aboard Arizona website. We’re going to get the Sunset daily and back through Phoenix, but that’s just the start. The Sun Corridor is coming and that will have frequent service between Tucson and Buckeye with additional service, with the Sunset, to LA. What you’re talking about is doable, but the southern terminus should be Tucson. Tucson is a sizable community, and there will be a maintenance facility there for the Sun Corridor. But the Sunset Route is going to be primary. This ties into the Coachella Valley service that’s coming to fruition. If you’re interested in all of this, we’ll be having our Passenger Rail Summit in Phoenix on November 4th. The players who are bringing rail back to Phoenix will be there. Go to the All Aboard Arizona website. Check out our input into the FRA Long Distance Study. We’ve been stakeholder representatives on the study. This is going to happen, but we can use your help. Join us!

 

[toddinde]

This is an intriguing idea.
Putting track maintenance issues aside, and some routing issues.

Have the westbound SWC drop cars at Williams AZ. Rail cars for Phoenix, and The Grand Canyon. Multi route will spread the cost out. Multi routes will have a crew base large enough to be effective, and efficient sized.

I also like the dropping of rail cars at Kansas City for St Louis service on the eastbound. Of course this becomes a problem with the placement within the train.

Remember too though that the Crescent-Star is coming from Atlanta to Fort Worth. Fort Worth to El Paso via Midland is also likely coming. The Heartland Flyer is going to head north to Newton, Kansas City and potentially north from there to Minneapolis. My point is that through cars on the Texas Eagle via Midland will be faster and Fort Worth promises to be a big hub. The daily Sunset back through Phoenix is the first lynchpin. Amtrak has applied for two grants to make this happen and has also filed a complaint with the Surface Transportation Board to improve UP’s handling of trains 1&2. We’re making huge progress. The Peavine Line is a tougher nut. Lots of options there. Regional rail to the Prescott area with a Thruway bus connection through Sedona to Flagstaff as a first step? Extending a section of the Southwest Chief to Tucson as All Aboard Arizona suggests in its recent input to the FRA? Lots of action on rail in Arizona.

 

[toddinde]

I was comparing the cost of the "Peavine" with the cost of restoring the Sunset route back thru Phoenix...not with the "Golden State route"...

The cost of restoring service through Phoenix on the Sunset Route isn’t an expensive option. The Peavine is tough railroad. The easiest and cheapest alternative is the Wellton Line. It’s still there, the costs of upgrading it are known. That’s the imminent plan. Amtrak has applied for grants from the FRA to make it happen. The route from Tucson to Phoenix is also known, is an active railroad, and the Phase 1 Environmental work is done. Getting the Sunset Limited is neither difficult nor expensive and would more efficiently serve southern Arizona than the Peavine. That doesn’t mean the Peavine doesn’t have a place down the road. It does, and at some point, after the Sunset returns to Phoenix and the Sun Corridor is up and running, the Peavine can be looked at. Perhaps with a Phoenix-San Francisco Bay Area through cars with a revived San Francisco Chief.

 

[tgstubbs1]

I know Amtrak really wants to get the Phoenix metro back in service. I read quite a bit about the old route and the devious sabotage of the line, which is still being investigated.

Remember too though that the Crescent-Star is coming from Atlanta to Fort Worth. Fort Worth to El Paso via Midland is also likely coming. The Heartland Flyer is going to head north to Newton, Kansas City and potentially north from there to Minneapolis.

It seems that these shorter regional trains run with more frequency and overlap of the LD routes is a great idea. I am sometimes wondering if some of the current LD trains are too long, maybe some shorter subsets of the routes would help.

The easiest and cheapest alternative is the Wellton Line.

I looked at the website and found one map but it didn't identify which line is the Wellton Line.

I agree that Tucson would be a good starting point. A train from Tucson to Flagstaff would be great, maybe slow on the Peavine but I didn't see any other way. And I guess you can connect from Wickenburg to the Coachella route?
The Peavine route is probably scenic.

 

[toddinde]

I know Amtrak really wants to get the Phoenix metro back in service. I read quite a bit about the old route and the devious sabotage of the line, which is still being investigated.



It seems that these shorter regional trains run with more frequency and overlap of the LD routes is a great idea. I am sometimes wondering if some of the current LD trains are too long, maybe some shorter subsets of the routes would help.



I looked at the website and found one map but it didn't identify which line is the Wellton Line.

I agree that Tucson would be a good starting point. A train from Tucson to Flagstaff would be great, maybe slow on the Peavine but I didn't see any other way. And I guess you can connect from Wickenburg to the Coachella route?
The Peavine route is probably scenic.

The Wellton line is the traditional route of the Sunset. It runs west from Phoenix to Wellton where it joins the Sunset Route. Service is suspended, but it’s not abandoned and the tracks are still there. They would be replaced, but it could be a very fast line. We’ll get something up on our website on the Wellton line. That route is important to Arizona because it would link all of southern Arizona from Willcox in the east (we’ve requested Amtrak consider a stop there which would also serve Douglas and Safford via transit connections), Benson (Tombstone, Bisbee and Sierra Vista), Tucson, Queen Creek or Gilbert, Mesa, Tempe, Sky Harbor, Phoenix, Buckeye and Yuma and then on to the Coachella Valley. Yuma is very supportive of rail and is opening a new station. Coachella Valley wants service to Phoenix. Obviously, all these would not be Sunset Limited stops, but the corridor stops would be served by the Sun Corridor. Longer term, high speed rail in the I-10 corridor will augment conventional rail between Phoenix and LA. The line through Wickenburg feeds the Santa Fe mainline and wouldn’t link to the Coachella Valley. That line also wasn’t built as a high speed passenger line like the Wellton line was. The Wellton line was built to bring the Sunset and Golden State through Phoenix in the early 1900’s and is engineered for fast passenger trains.

 

[Tod]

@toddinde

I like your enthusiasm, I'm just not as energized because it is basically the government needing to spend money on passenger rail. They spend it in weird ways.

Now that I'm aware of the "November 4th when we’ll have or Passenger Rail Summit in Phoenix" I will make every effort to be there.

 

[alanh]

The lines in a state where it needs a complete rebuild, UP just uses it mostly to store cars and switch some industries. Because of some of those it might be class 2 track in segments. It needs new rail to replace the jointed rail unless someone wants to weld in place the rail into very long sticks and an extensive tie program. I believe its still signaled but its not got PTC, CTC or electric locks on the hundreds of manual switches

Class 4 for 80mph top speed I could see happening if there was 3-4RT daily, sunset limited acting as the sleeper and then 2-3RT for a daytime train. I'd like 90 or 110mph top speeds but I can't see that happening without more RT.

The active sections have signals; the eastern end was updated not too long ago. The inactive section hasn't been touched. It had semaphores which have been stripped in the years since. It would need all new positional signals.

 

[GDRRiley]

I like your enthusiasm, I'm just not as energized because it is basically the government needing to spend money on passenger rail. They spend it in weird ways.

Now that I'm aware of the "November 4th when we’ll have or Passenger Rail Summit in Phoenix" I will make every effort to be there.

Amtrak has LD infrastructure money