Protests continue for third day

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Anderson

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Honestly, it sounds like a judge needs to turn into Oprah and "Everybody gets an injunction!" so this fiasco can be litigated without, y'know, shutting the country down.
 

jiml

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Feb 27, 2019
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Latest release from CN confirms no Amtrak service either.
The simple move would be for Trudeau to revoke the permits for the pipeline, which would lead to litigation but quiet EVERYTHING down. He doesn't seem to be smart enough to do that.
There are those on both ends of the political spectrum who question whether he is smart enough to dress himself in the morning, let alone negotiate anything. He's at his best taking selfies while on vacation.
 

jiml

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Interestingly, the Mohawks of Tyendinaga have been legally precise. They have set up camps adjacent to the lines, and requested that CN stop traffic. They have not blocked the lines. (I may be wrong, but it looks like they actually settled the land claim over the CN tracks proper, but not the surrounding land). CN honored their request.
Not so much in the early going. The bulldozer and other heavy equipment that started this have been moved from the level crossing they initially occupied, but the threat remains trackside. CN isn't honoring anything except their lawyers' advice.
 

jiml

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Honestly, it sounds like a judge needs to turn into Oprah and "Everybody gets an injunction!" so this fiasco can be litigated without, y'know, shutting the country down.
Your last point seems to be the objective, with many of the protest locations featuring little or no actual native content.
shut_down_canada.jpg
 

Anderson

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Your last point seems to be the objective, with many of the protest locations featuring little or no actual native content.
View attachment 16953
Which is my point: The natives get an injunction on the pipeline and then the protestors get an injunction and carted off to jail if they keep blocking things.
 

jiml

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Several highway bridges to the US have now been closed as well. The problem will be, if the government gives in on this every future complaint will be resolved in this manner. I believe that is called anarchy.
 

Seaboard92

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In reality the government is in a devils bargain right now.

They can opt to resolve the pressing issue of the pipeline but like others have said then any grievance will be handled this way which isn’t a working plan.

Or and in my opinion the better option.

They allow the protests to continue till the general public gets tired of it, and the economy starts to show for it. Let some shortages occur, and prices rise just enough it’ll do two things.

1. The public opinion will change from oh the poor aboriginal tribes, to just end this so our lives go back to normal. And then when Ottawa acts it won’t have a negative effect to the current government.

2. It demonstrates just how important the trains are in Canada still. And with that we will start to see infrastructure improvements. That there is only one CN route and one CP route between Toronto and Montreal really is a mistake. You need redundancy to a point. Any decent accident could knock out both mains in places then what to do?

So I say let the supplies dwindle a bit, let it start to bite in the wallet a bit and there will be a more positive outcome.
 

jiml

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That there is only one CN route and one CP route between Toronto and Montreal really is a mistake. You need redundancy to a point. Any decent accident could knock out both mains in places then what to do?
Good observation. The redundancy used to exist, but generations of abandonment have yielded the current situation. In some cases the two main lines run almost next to each other. Case in point - this shot minutes from my home (©Rob Eull -Railpictures.ca). Upper tracks are CP, lower CN/VIA.

VIA-61.jpg
 

Anderson

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@Seaboard92
The problem with that approach is that sooner or later somebody has to decide to give up some votes and some feel-goods to get things moving again. Obviously, how many votes are lost depends on the handling but there's a point where it ought to be worth the government's while to simply tell the tribes "Well, then I guess you'll be voting for somebody else next election" and move on. Arguably, the problem is that this "looks bad" to a lot of other people (who tend to have short memories).

The other problem is that there are a lot of things you can work around with a lot of trucks, etc., so a lot of things will only get but so bad. Bear in mind that there's a lot of freight you can just send via Chicago.
 

Anderson

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Classic example of the squeaky wheel concept. Apparently it's "safe enough" to run trains there and nowhere else.
Not quite. The blockage for VIA was on the Toronto-Kingston chunk of track, I think, so that portion is unaffected (and shouldn't have much freight interference to boot ;-))

(It wouldn't be practical, but I would have been amused to see VIA set up a schedule of literally pulling the trains up to one side of the protestors and then having folks walk past the protest under guard and board another train.)
 

jiml

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Not quite. The blockage for VIA was on the Toronto-Kingston chunk of track, I think, so that portion is unaffected (and shouldn't have much freight interference to boot ;-))
I'm aware of where the blockages are located. There was no reason to terminate the Quebec City trains in the first place, however CN cited safety as the reason and VIA shut everything down. Now after the Premier of Quebec squawks publicly "his" trains starting running again. As political as Amtrak is, it will never hold a candle to VIA.
(It wouldn't be practical, but I would have been amused to see VIA set up a schedule of literally pulling the trains up to one side of the protestors and then having folks walk past the protest under guard and board another train.)
Brilliant!
 

brianpmcdonnell17

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Mar 5, 2016
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1,270
Is it likely that long distance VIA service will be suspended for longer than CN to allow for the backlog of freight to clear?

I booked on #2 leaving Vancouver March 16th. It seems probable that this will be resolved by then, but I'm also concerned about the reopening of VIA service potentially being delayed for that reason.
 

brianpmcdonnell17

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Mar 5, 2016
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Trains operating entirely between Quebec City and Ottawa will resume operation on Thursday.
Trains will also resume operating Thursday on Corridor routes west of Toronto, including the Maple Leaf and trains to Windsor and Sarnia.

Service from Toronto to Montreal and Ottawa is still suspended in addition to the four overnight trains (except Churchill-The Pas) and trains operating north from Montreal.
 

Anderson

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Nov 16, 2010
Messages
9,554
Is it likely that long distance VIA service will be suspended for longer than CN to allow for the backlog of freight to clear?

I booked on #2 leaving Vancouver March 16th. It seems probable that this will be resolved by then, but I'm also concerned about the reopening of VIA service potentially being delayed for that reason.
I'm on #2 on March 5. This is gonna be...interesting.

Am seriously wondering about the mechanics of suing somebody over obstructing the tracks, given that there's an injunction involved.
 

Skyline

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Joined
Feb 19, 2016
Messages
655
As a US citizen who usually admires Trudeau and wishes we had him instead of the Orange Blob as our leader, I gotta say he's not shown much leadership in this dispute. Yes, he's caught between a rock and a hard place. But he needs to at least be involved, and try to mediate/compromise. Or failing compromise, take a side. The ultimate goal should be to (1) Respect First Nations' well being and their rights and (2) Get the trains and nation moving again.

He can and must accomplish both goals but he's going to seriously **** off one or both sides in the process. Because the pipeline routing was already in the wrong place, allowed to be placed there through political shenanigans, he's going to need to break with Canada's long tradition of giving natives the finger and do what he can to force the pipeline folks to move their project away from First Nations lands (and while doing so move it anywhere else that would also be more environmentally friendly). This will cost the billionaires many millions and probably cost Trudeau and his party future support from some of them.

Mr. Trudeau: Do the right thing, and this stalemate ends.
 

Bob Dylan

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Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
18,969
As a US citizen who usually admires Trudeau and wishes we had him instead of the Orange Blob as our leader, I gotta say he's not shown much leadership in this dispute. Yes, he's caught between a rock and a hard place. But he needs to at least be involved, and try to mediate/compromise. Or failing compromise, take a side. The ultimate goal should be to (1) Respect First Nations' well being and their rights and (2) Get the trains and nation moving again.

He can and must accomplish both goals but he's going to seriously **** off one or both sides in the process. Because the pipeline routing was already in the wrong place, allowed to be placed there through political shenanigans, he's going to need to break with Canada's long tradition of giving natives the finger and do what he can to force the pipeline folks to move their project away from First Nations lands (and while doing so move it anywhere else that would also be more environmentally friendly). This will cost the billionaires many millions and probably cost Trudeau and his party future support from some of them.

Mr. Trudeau: Do the right thing, and this stalemate ends.
The PM already has a Minority Government, so look for the Tories to win the next election!:(

And,Sadly, dont bet the house on him getting the Pipeline moved, Billionaires always Win!
 

jiml

OBS Chief
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
708
If you lay off staff, you have to pay them severance pay and try to rehire them when the line is free again. Therefore, laying people off only makes sense when you have certainty that no train will roll for the next few months and where you have a few weeks notice to re-hire people. This was the case with Churchill when service north of Gillam was blocked for almost 20 months, but it absolutely doesn’t apply to the current situation, where the blockade could be removed any day and service resume within 48 hours.
Sorry, hope you're not affected, but totally predictable.
VIA has temporarily laid off 1,000 employees.
 
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