Rail in the Keys?

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KWBud

Train Attendant
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
70
Sometime in the distant past, an unnamed storm took out the railroad serving the Florida Keys. The rail bed and the bridges were purloined by a road project and most everyone assumed that railroading in the Keys would never return.

However there is some thought about bringing light rail back to the Keys. Hopefully if it is ever built, it will make a connection with the Amtrak station in Miami.

--

Bud
 
If it is ever built it will be something like the NJT River Line using DLRTs

Incidentally most of the old Flagler 7 Mile bridge is intact and probably can be repurposed for LRT use. Maybe even the old Bahia Honda Bridge can be refurbished for such use.

Traffic on Route 1 in the Keys is a complete nightmare. An ideal situation would be build such a light rail with relatively frequent service with stops on each island, and then place some enormous toll on private cars with exception for residents of the Keys. build a large parking lot station on the mainland allowing people to leave their cars long term for a low parking fee and transfer to the light rail to get to the islands in the Keys.

Building it grade separated would be extremely desirable but will probably be difficult to get environmental approval for.

Now only if we can get FECI interested in it :p
 
Getting to Key Largo wouldn't be all that expensive, but once you get past Islamorada I think it gets problematic due to the lack of RR bridges.

It is just as well, Key West is kind of touristy/fern bar'ish now so Key Largo is more fun for scuba and snorkeling, and food for that matter. ;-)

Seriously, though, I could have sworn I heard trains near Mrs. Mac's in Key Largo but I can't find a track on Google maps to save my life.

On edit: And looking at the map, just getting to Islamorada would be problematic as well. I think almost all the old RR bridges south of Key Largo are gone.
 
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Getting to Key Largo wouldn't be all that expensive, but once you get past Islamorada I think it gets problematic due to the lack of RR bridges.

It is just as well, Key West is kind of touristy/fern bar'ish now so Key Largo is more fun for scuba and snorkeling, and food for that matter. ;-)

Seriously, though, I could have sworn I heard trains near Mrs. Mac's in Key Largo but I can't find a track on Google maps to save my life.

On edit: And looking at the map, just getting to Islamorada would be problematic as well. I think almost all the old RR bridges south of Key Largo are gone.
Fern bars? Key West? We are a hard drinking town with a serious tourist problem :blush:

Anyhow, on topic, the article mentions monorail and I suspect that the system would have to be something like that. While a lot of the old grade (Old US1) is still there, it would be impractical to use it.

If it is ever built it will be something like the NJT River Line using DLRTs

Incidentally most of the old Flagler 7 Mile bridge is intact and probably can be repurposed for LRT use. Maybe even the old Bahia Honda Bridge can be refurbished for such use.

Traffic on Route 1 in the Keys is a complete nightmare. An ideal situation would be build such a light rail with relatively frequent service with stops on each island, and then place some enormous toll on private cars with exception for residents of the Keys. build a large parking lot station on the mainland allowing people to leave their cars long term for a low parking fee and transfer to the light rail to get to the islands in the Keys.

Building it grade separated would be extremely desirable but will probably be difficult to get environmental approval for.

Now only if we can get FECI interested in it :p
Right now they are thinking of banning pedestrian traffic on the Old 7 due to safety concerns. The old swing section is beyond repair and would cost a fortune to replace. There is a similar situation with the old Bahia Honda Bridge.

The bridges that are viable are being used for a bike trail or fishing piers. Fixing them might be viable, but a suspended monorail system is probably a better choice.

Neither one is likely to be done in any reasonable lifetime, though.

--

Bud
 
Getting to Key Largo wouldn't be all that expensive, but once you get past Islamorada I think it gets problematic due to the lack of RR bridges.

It is just as well, Key West is kind of touristy/fern bar'ish now so Key Largo is more fun for scuba and snorkeling, and food for that matter. ;-)

Seriously, though, I could have sworn I heard trains near Mrs. Mac's in Key Largo but I can't find a track on Google maps to save my life.

On edit: And looking at the map, just getting to Islamorada would be problematic as well. I think almost all the old RR bridges south of Key Largo are gone.
Fern bars? Key West? We are a hard drinking town with a serious tourist problem :blush:

Anyhow, on topic, the article mentions monorail and I suspect that the system would have to be something like that. While a lot of the old grade (Old US1) is still there, it would be impractical to use it.

If it is ever built it will be something like the NJT River Line using DLRTs

Incidentally most of the old Flagler 7 Mile bridge is intact and probably can be repurposed for LRT use. Maybe even the old Bahia Honda Bridge can be refurbished for such use.

Traffic on Route 1 in the Keys is a complete nightmare. An ideal situation would be build such a light rail with relatively frequent service with stops on each island, and then place some enormous toll on private cars with exception for residents of the Keys. build a large parking lot station on the mainland allowing people to leave their cars long term for a low parking fee and transfer to the light rail to get to the islands in the Keys.

Building it grade separated would be extremely desirable but will probably be difficult to get environmental approval for.

Now only if we can get FECI interested in it :p
Right now they are thinking of banning pedestrian traffic on the Old 7 due to safety concerns. The old swing section is beyond repair and would cost a fortune to replace. There is a similar situation with the old Bahia Honda Bridge.

The bridges that are viable are being used for a bike trail or fishing piers. Fixing them might be viable, but a suspended monorail system is probably a better choice.

Neither one is likely to be done in any reasonable lifetime, though.

--

Bud
Yeah, right. The Green Parrot is a real fern bar. :eek:Henry Flagler was far ahead of his time, but we'll never see any kind of a RR, monorail, etc. I lived in kW in the 70's before I moved to Idaho like Hemingway. I and did a revisit last May. Lasted 2 days...really a changed place with the cruise ships coming in now. The place was expensive to live back then, but now service workers are commuting from as far as Big Pine as rent is so high and unavailable. Average house in Old Town is over a mil. I used to live at 1433 Reynolds St. right across from the below linked Casa Marina. Only thing open back then was the Bird Cage bar. I had 5 female roommates and my rent was $55 a month!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Railroad

http://www.casamarinaresort.com/about-en.html
 
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While I'm not opposed to the idea of a monorail (the Keys are in a natural configuration for a transit line of some sort) I shudder at the idea not only of the cost of building the line but of what would be involved if another Cat4/5 storm decided to slam it.

One of the big problems is, frankly, the sheer length of such a route combined with a low total population. The mainland to Key West gets you about 115 miles of line (basically presuming that you ran the line from Key West to a massive parking lot at the water's edge); extending that up into Homestead gets you to 127 miles and Coral Gables around 150 miles. I think you could reasonably hope to connect to a Tri-Rail extension or other transit link and massive parking facility in Homestead[1]. So going with perhaps a generously low 125 miles of line Homestead-Key West (and likely at least a 3-hour trip, though this seems likely to wind up being drive-time competitive the way US 1 is going)...uh, anyone want to guess what this thing would run per-mile? I'm getting costs in the $100-150m/mile range from c.2002 from a pro-light rail group but I'm also seeing some lower estimates from the Monorail Society (perhaps $50m/mile). For reference, IIRC Seattle's Monorail (Charlie can correct this if I'm off) was to run $2bn for 14 miles, for $142m/mile.

Slamming this down to what I suspect is the absolute low end ($50m/mile) you'd be looking at $6.25bn. Going with $100m/mile gets $12.5bn...and I suspect that's a better low-end estimate given that the whole thing would be bridges. At $142m/mile (in line with Seattle and by far the largest such system in the world) you'd be looking at $17.86bn. I'm suspecting that the maintenance bill would be a monster as well.

At the low end this project would be dubious IMHO; at the high end...all I can say is that of all the transit ideas I've seen to dump that sort of money into, this has to qualify as one of the worst. If I didn't know better I'd suspect USRail21 for coming up with it. You'd probably be better off buying a fleet of reasonably fast ferries to run frequent service from Miami to some of the key islands and then possibly beefing up bus service alongside that.

[1] SFRTA proposal for a Homestead line can be found here: http://www.sfrta.fl.gov/docs/planning/SFRTA-Miami-Dade-County-Rail-Opportunities_ver2.pdf
 
Building it grade separated would be extremely desirable but will probably be difficult to get environmental approval for.
Not if its a monorail. Then you just need to put in pillars and beams. Pillars can go into the sea when between islands and the old bridges are not considered usable, and when on land can be placed above the old rail alignment or above roads and so minimize effects on properties.

A monorail gliding from island to island above the sea could become an attraction in its own right.

Ideally it should go all the way to Miami to connect up with AAF. That way it might also pick up some commuter traffic in addition to the holiday and leisure traffic.
 
Environmental approval for elevated structures is the same whether it is monorail or bi-rail.

I don;t think this will happen, unless someone finds a way of making enough money out of some attached real estate project.
 
I am of two minds about this. In theory, it sounds lovely. But I read Last Train to Paradise, the book about the hurricane and the train disaster, and it was one of the saddest things I ever read.

I know we have better weather warnings and safety systems today, but I'm still not sure that Mother Nature couldn't cause havoc somehow.
 
I am of two minds about this. In theory, it sounds lovely. But I read Last Train to Paradise, the book about the hurricane and the train disaster, and it was one of the saddest things I ever read.

I know we have better weather warnings and safety systems today, but I'm still not sure that Mother Nature couldn't cause havoc somehow.
With satellites, we will probably always have sufficient warning on hurricanes. Whether we prepare or not is a different story. We had plenty of warning for Wilma and were still not prepared. However we won't have much warning when the Megatsunami hits :wacko:

Anyhow, think of the tourist attraction that a monorail could become. There are three areas where the clearance must be 65+ Ft. (Jewfish Creek, Channel 5, and Mosher Channel) and two that need 40+ Ft. (Snake Creek and Niles Channel) and the views from there would be astounding.

But the monorail need not follow the islands chain exactly. The existing tie line goes over the back country in places and a monorail could do so also.

We could have day tripper tourists come in by the trainload and become the fern bar capitol of the Western Hemisphere. :giggle:

--

Bud
 
KYBud: As the old saying goes, "Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it!"

The Cruise ship crowds should be enough of the fern bar and shopping types to go along with the vehicle traffic.

The old Key West, as has been said, is already gone!
 
KYBud: As the old saying goes, "Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it!"

The Cruise ship crowds should be enough of the fern bar and shopping types to go along with the vehicle traffic.

The old Key West, as has been said, is already gone!
 
Any sea level rise won't happen for hundreds if not thousands of years, let's worry about the here and now first.
This is factually incorrect. Sea level rise is already happening, it's already measured in inches, it's already flooding the sewer systems in south Florida (which has porous ground), and it will be quite significant within the next 50 years. Do your research before shooting your mouth off.

I'm pretty safe up here near the Great Lakes. You're safe in inland Georgia. New York City can build seawalls. By contrast, South Florida, which is nearly flat, at sea level, and has porous bedrock (so seawalls are worthless), is in huge, huge, huge trouble. The Keys are toast. (Other areas which are toast include Galveston, which is built on a sandbar, and unfortunately most of the nation of Bangladesh.)
 
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Any sea level rise won't happen for hundreds if not thousands of years, let's worry about the here and now first.
This is factually incorrect. Sea level rise is already happening, it's already measured in inches, it's already flooding the sewer systems in south Florida (which has porous ground), and it will be quite significant within the next 50 years. Do your research before shooting your mouth off.

I'm pretty safe up here near the Great Lakes. You're safe in inland Georgia. New York City can build seawalls. By contrast, South Florida, which is nearly flat, at sea level, and has porous bedrock (so seawalls are worthless), is in huge, huge, huge trouble. The Keys are toast. (Other areas which are toast include Galveston, which is built on a sandbar, and unfortunately most of the nation of Bangladesh.)
The actual sea level rise in Key West is about 9 inches per century, but in Galveston it is over 2 feet per century. In Alaska, the sea level is actually falling by over 5 feet per century. That said eustatic sea level in geologically stable areas does actually show a rise of about 8 inches per century.

Duval Street does actually flood on astronomical high tides, but it has always been that way, even before they paved the street. The only reason we are more aware of it is due to the media hype.

But, my motto is, "Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story."

--

Bud
 
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How does that saying go? Something like "past performance does not indicate future results"?

The historical rate of change matters far less than what the rate will be over the next century, and in the Keys it's going to be a bit more than just 9 inches.
 
How does that saying go? Something like "past performance does not indicate future results"?

The historical rate of change matters far less than what the rate will be over the next century, and in the Keys it's going to be a bit more than just 9 inches.
It's probably true that the sea level is rising, but how far does it need to rise until the Keys become uninhabitable, and how long will that take? I don't think we will see those islands abandoned in our lifetimes.

Monorail systems or indeed light rail don't last for ever. So The question is, if we start planning now, will we need to wrtite off much value when doomsday comes? I don't think so.

Remember that encouraging people to move to public transit actually mitigates global warming. Defeatism isn't always the best strategy.
 
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. The FEC railroad can be creditied for populating and developing the islands of the keys but Henry Flagler envisioned Key West as a coal loading/refueling stop for the ships of the day (that ran on coal) . The railroad was not constructed to derive its revenue from only passenger service. As steamships evolved to run on fuel oil, the coal business that the railroad envisoned never materialized and the route was never profitable. Even if a light rail provision was added to the existing causeway, I do not believe passenger service can ever pay for the cost to re-establish the railroad route to the keys. In-season vacation travel on the causeways can be brutal but an investment in rail service most likely won't happen.
 
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