Revisiting Boston-Florida service/NEC to FL via Charlotte

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jis said:
Philly Amtrak Fan said:
jis said:
I don't remember other stop times by heart and right now I am in Wales approaching Cardiff Central on the way to Crewe, and the onto Edinburgh Waverly, so I don't have the old timetables handy. It is only Amtrak that invented the current schedule which requires four consists.
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timetables.org.
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Truth be told at present I have more interesting things to attend to than poking around in timetables.org. ;)
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Do you remember the year(s)? I can look it up.
 
Seaboard92 said:
Philly I think 2001 if I'm not mistaken. As I caught 97 in Florence a lot around six am. Maybe seven
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The 97 left NYP at 7:05pm (today 3:15pm) and arrived in MIA at 9:46pm (today 6:39pm). That was in the days when the Silver Palm went to Florida. The 91 schedule back then is pretty close to today's schedule. The 89/90 (then to Florida) left a little later/ arrived a little earlier into NYP than the current Palmetto does. They provided an earlier arrival into Florida and a later departure from Florida).

I am not sure how the four hour shift allows Amtrak to run with one fewer consist going south (and the northbound 98 schedule is very close to the current one).

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20010429n&item=0034

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20010429n&item=0035

Maybe once the Viewliners come back in addition to a CHI-PHL train (whether CL/Pennsylvanian or a separate train) we can re-extend the Palmetto back to Florida. I would imagine a third train from the NEC to Florida would be welcome.
 
It would be welcome but I see the extended Palmetto having an interesting market. It's primary would be SAV-NYP as is and MIA-TPA. If the Meteors (train 97) schedule would shift it would make things far nicer for the east coast. It would make it possible for day trips from anywhere on the east coast to Washington and points north. Plus it would open up the strong South Carolina market south. Florence and Charleston already do good business on 97/98 but the shift would help. That gives both Carolina's a decent hour Florida train Nc gets 91/92 and SC get 97/98. I wouldn't move the current Star in my opinion unless I could move it early enough to hit Columbia before midnight. But then you alienate the Charlotte-FL market, and the Piedmont connection.
 
The later depature of #97 would have been a godsend when i was on a delayed Empire Service and had a specific day I needed to be in Florida. Missing the connection meant I had to cancel the whole trip and get refunds for the entire thing. The 7:05 PM departure is better.
 
Seaboard92 said:
It would be welcome but I see the extended Palmetto having an interesting market. It's primary would be SAV-NYP as is and MIA-TPA. If the Meteors (train 97) schedule would shift it would make things far nicer for the east coast. It would make it possible for day trips from anywhere on the east coast to Washington and points north. Plus it would open up the strong South Carolina market south. Florence and Charleston already do good business on 97/98 but the shift would help. That gives both Carolina's a decent hour Florida train Nc gets 91/92 and SC get 97/98. I wouldn't move the current Star in my opinion unless I could move it early enough to hit Columbia before midnight. But then you alienate the Charlotte-FL market, and the Piedmont connection.
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Currently it is: 76 arrives in Raleigh at 8:26pm and 91 leaves Raleigh for Florida at 9:01pm. Would Amtrak even allow that tight a connection? You could do Cary (8:08pm to 9:23pm) I guess but how big a station is Cary? I don't think any Carolina passengers want to take the 74 and have to wait almost 6 hours in Raleigh.

The 92-75 connection has a three hour layover (8:45am to 11:45am) which seems like a long time but necessary in case the SS arrives late. Plus, there's the Carolinian as a backup although that doesn't leave Raleigh until 4:50pm.

I feel the Silver Star/Piedmont connection has to be studied in more detail going from CLT to Florida. Perhaps if the state of North Carolina adds more Piedmont trains the problem will be fixed.
 
I'll confess that I'd kvetch up a storm if 97 got shoved substantially later [1]...but it wouldn't even be that bad for me since it would let me leave WAS a lot later. Being able to leave WAS at, say, 2300 and get into RVR at about 0100 means I get a full day (including dinner) with friends in DC; a year or two ago it would have meant drinks with Brian Gallagher after a reception. It would also mean that a Meteor-Meteor round-trip into New York would net me a full day there (1000/1100-1900). Taking the train to New York for eight hours translates into a nice lunch and a museum or two.

As to 89/90 [2], I'd be inclined to run a section down FEC and a section to ORL/TPA, timing operations for an arrival into WPB/MIA and ORL/TPA in time for the start of business (0700 ORL, 0900 TPA). This is actually a decent time from a tourist perspective as well if you could get your bags held: Presuming reasonable reliability, you'd be able to get to most of the Orlando parks in time for the start of operations (which at $100/day for admission to Magic Kingdom is kind of a big deal). South Florida is condensed enough that you'd be able to arrange a similar arrival for basically all of the stations down there under the same rubric.

One other thing: I thought when all three trains were running NYP-MIA, the scheduling was to allow three trains with ten sets (as opposed to two trains needing eight sets now), not necessarily set-swapping with the Broadway or Lake Shore?

[1] I've gotten accustomed to grabbing it from WAS, having dinner, and then getting off in RVR. This is really the trip setup that got me set on taking Amtrak regularly. The steak is a nice break from the Regional cafe.

[2] And frankly, all three trains in an ideal world...and possibly certain other services which are AWOL...in keeping with their timetables.
 
Now what other routes could be tightened up to free one extra set. Let's say we would so my Ohio state Limited as it's a two set train. The Meteor move frees one of two. What other route can be tweaked to have one less set. Initially I thought the crescent but leaving any earlier from NOLA would be an issue.
 
I'm sure many of you read my proposal for Boston to Florida service. In the middle of it came the topic of North Carolina to Florida service.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66344-revisiting-boston-florida-service/?p=635753

I had discussed the tight time between train 76 and train 91 going from Charlotte to Florida via Raleigh. I had also discussed a third train from the NEC to Florida.

The 2011 PRIIA for the Silver Service said that they studied rerouting the Silver Star via Charlotte and Greensboro but said it wasn't feasible.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/570/756/2011%20PRIIA%20210%20Report%2009-26-11_final.pdf

I also thought about Seaboard92's proposal for Chicago-Florida service via Atlanta.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66184-revived-floridian/

Well I put that all together and thought about a new idea for a train...

Have a train take the Crescent route from NYP to ATL, then turn at ATL to serve Florida. Of course this has to wait until the Viewliner II's come in.

There are a few different ways this can be done.

Option 1 (Easiest implementation): Through cars from ATL to MIA on the Crescent.

The train would split/merge with the Crescent in ATL. Using a rough estimate of 6 hours from ATL to JAX, the train could leave ATL around 9am, JAX around 3pm, ORL around 6pm,and MIA around midnight. The return would leave MIA around 3am, ORL around 9am, JAX around noon, and ATL around 6pm to connect with the Crescent from NOL. To get better times in Florida, you can move the southbound 19 up an hour and the northbound 20 back 3 hours.

Option 2: Separate train NEC-CLT-ATL-Florida (Silver Moon), Crescent stays same

The train would run approximately 33 hours (NYP-ATL 18 hrs, ATL-JAX 6 hrs, JAX-MIA 9 hrs). This train could serve as a 2nd daily from NYP to ATL as well as access from GRO/CLT/ATL to Florida. It's doubtful anyone from the NEC would go to Florida using this train.

Southbound 9: NYP 7:15pm, PHL 8:55pm, WAS 11:30pm, CLT 7:20/7:45am, ATL 1:13/1:38pm, JAX 7:39/8:04pm, ORL 11:14/11:29pm, MIA 5:09am

Northbound 10: MIA 7:50am, ORL 1:03/1:15pm, JAX 4:22/4:42pm, ATL 10:35/11:04pm, CLT 4:21/4:46am, WAS 12:53pm, PHL 3:08pm, NYP 4:46pm

You might have to move the northbound 98 back a bit to avoid overlap with the northbound 10.

Option 3: Separate train NEC-CLT-ATL-Florida (Silver Moon), Switch Crescent 19 southbound back

Southbound 9: (NYP to ATL times same as current 19 southbound) JAX 2:39/3:04pm, ORL 6:14/6:29pm, MIA 12:09am

Northbound 10: MIA 7:50am, ORL 1:03/1:15pm, JAX 4:22/4:42pm, ATL 10:35/11:04pm, CLT 4:21/4:46am, WAS 12:53pm, PHL 3:08pm, NYP 4:46pm

Southbound 19: NYP 6:15pm, PHL 7:55pm, WAS 10:30pm, Charlotte 6:20/6:45am, ATL 12:13/12:38pm, NOL 11:32/midnight

Northbound 20 unchanged

Option 4: Separate train NEC-CLT-ATL-Florida (Silver Moon), Extend Crescent to SAS (similar to previous proposal)

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/65927-proposal-for-extending-crescent-to-sas-improving-te-schedule/

Southbound 9: (NYP to ATL times same as current 19 southbound) JAX 2:39/3:04pm, ORL 6:14/6:29pm, MIA 12:09am

Northbound 10: MIA 7:50am, ORL 1:03/1:15pm, JAX 4:22/4:42pm, ATL 10:35/11:04pm, CLT 4:21/4:46am, WAS 12:53pm, PHL 3:08pm, NYP 4:46pm

Southbound 19: NYP 6:15pm, PHL 7:55pm, WAS 10:30pm, Charlotte 6:20/6:45am, ATL 12:13/12:38pm, NOL 11:32/midnight, HOU 9:18/9:55am, SAS 3:05pm

Northbound 20: SAS 2:25pm, HOU 7:10/8:10pm, NOL 5:40/7:00am (NOL to NYP times unchanged)

Southbound 21/421: CHI noon, STL 5:36/6:15pm, DAL 9:45/10:05am, SAS 8:10/9:00pm, El Paso 7:37/8:02am, Tucson 1:00/1:50pm , Maricopa 3:07/3:17pm, LAX 11:50pm

Layover in SAS from 19 to 21/421: 3:05pm to 9:00pm

Layover in SAS from 22/422 to 20: 5:50am to 2:25pm

When I first proposed this, one of the complaints was shifting the southbound 19 schedule. Under this proposal, the southbound 9 takes its place from NYP to ATL. They also said there would be a lack of trains but assuming the Viewliner II's are in, you might have the necessary equipment.

Under these schedules, you can do 422 to 20 to 9 to go from LAX/Texas to Florida without going through CHI. Unfortunately 10 to 19 via ATL would require an overnight in ATL. You could also do any Florida train to WAS (the 92 would have the shortest layover with the 19) and then the 19 to SAS which sounds stupid but right now there's no way to get from Florida to Texas/LAX without going through CHI.

Option 4 is the most aggressive. Options 2 and 3 allows for two NEC to ATL trains. If you split the current NYP-ATL Crescent traffic between the Crescent and Silver Moon you might be able to run the Crescent with one fewer coach car. Option 1 simply adds the option from ATL (and GRO/CLT) to Florida.

Again, it all depends on the Viewliner II's. But if Amtrak can establish ATL to JAX, it does open up some new city pairs.
 
Philly, I almost would put this in it's own topic. As it's worthy of it in my opinion. But here is my option. Have the train leave with the Palmetto at six am from NYP. maybe combine those two. Then run it down the crescents route as a day train to Atlanta. Looking at a arrival around eleven. Route via NS to JAX from there. You are in JAX at the same time for the Star one could either combine the two. Or route one via the FEC south to Miami. In the case I would run the Silver Comet and split it. Half goes to tampa and terminates. Half goes to MIA via the FEC. The star then could drop Tampa and speed it's time card up
 
And for the return leg have it leave ATL around six get into NYP around the same time as the Palmetto. Which puts this new train running in the Stars slot again in Florida. So either rescheduling the Star around or detouring one train to the FEC with a Tampa section.
 
Seaboard92 said:
And for the return leg have it leave ATL around six get into NYP around the same time as the Palmetto. Which puts this new train running in the Stars slot again in Florida. So either rescheduling the Star around or detouring one train to the FEC with a Tampa section.
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There is no way to get a train the departs Atlanta at 6am into NYP at the same time as the Palmetto today. So this proposal is unattainable today. It might become possible some day, but not in the next five or so years.
 
Would this work?

Northbound 10: MIA 2:50pm, ORL 8:03/8:15pm, JAX 11:22/11:42pm, ATL 5:35/6:04am, CLT 11:21/11:46am, WAS 7:53pm, PHL 10:08pm, NYP 11:46pm

The ATL and NYP aren't quite terrible but not desirable either. If the train is late from the south, you're going to have a lot of unhappy passengers in NYP arriving after midnight. It does allow for a midday departure from North Carolina to the NEC as opposed to early morning on the Carolinian or the middle of the night on the Crescent.

My original proposal was:

Northbound 10: MIA 7:50am, ORL 1:03/1:15pm, JAX 4:22/4:42pm, ATL 10:35/11:04pm, CLT 4:21/4:46am, WAS 12:53pm, PHL 3:08pm, NYP 4:46pm

I hate to see Charlotte still in the dark (Greensboro would be 6:37/6:44am). The Florida times are pretty close to the current 98 northbound so that may have to be changed when the late arrival in New York would avoid that problem.

Would the late arrival into NYP be reasonable to you or would you have to do the original schedule?
 
The original schedule is preferable IMHO, though I would pad in about an hour and a half to move the arrival to well after 6pm in NYP. I am almost certain no one will allow scheduling an LD arrival so close to commission hour.
 
I see this less as a NY-FL train. More as a two market train. One being ATL-NYP and the other intra Florida. I like the revised schedule actually. Sure arriving in New York at that time stinks but I don't see it as having that much thru traffic. As the existing Florida trains would probably keep their NEC Florida trains because they have a faster carding
 
In that case it need not go to New York. It can just be turned in Washington, like most historical day train to Atlanta were. There may be just a possible connection to a late Regional to NYP. Basically any practical ATL - NYP schedule at present is 18 hours. If after the completion of the SEHSR it can be brought down to 16 hours then a real daytime train arriving into NYP ten o'clock-ish becomes feasible.
 
jis said:
The original schedule is preferable IMHO, though I would pad in about an hour and a half to move the arrival to well after 6pm in NYP. I am almost certain no one will allow scheduling an LD arrival so close to commission hour.
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Original Northbound 10: MIA 7:50am, ORL 1:03/1:15pm, JAX 4:22/4:42pm, ATL 10:35/11:04pm, CLT 4:21/4:46am, WAS 12:53pm, PHL 3:08pm, NYP 4:46pm

You could move the times up 1 hour so it arrives in NYP at 3:46pm. Charlotte and Greensboro would be worse though and 6:50am is pretty early for MIA.

If you move the times back 1.5 hours, then the train arrives/leaves ATL after midnight.

I actually agree with Seaboard92 despite the late night into NYP. The Palmetto does get into NYP at 11:36pm so it isn't unprecedented. Anyone from ATL to the NEC would probably take the 20. Anyone from Florida would probably take the 92 or 98. Since this train is mainly for the Carolina (and Atlanta) market, I think it's important that their times are reasonable. In addition to being an Atlanta/Carolina train to Florida, I can also see it becoming a Charlotte/Greensboro to NEC train. The Crescent leaves Carolina in the graveyard shift and the Carolinian leaves Charlotte at 7:00am so a later time may be welcome for them.

Would it be a problem with the Palmetto and Silver Moon so close along the East Coast though? Maybe you can move the Palmetto up an hour. You'd leave Savannah at 7:20am but Savannah also has the Silver Meteor north to the NEC (the Silver Star is 1:22am).
 
It could work. Except that it then ceases to be a very attractive train from Florida to Atlanta with a 5:30 or so arrival. But I suppose since it will be the only train people will suck it up :) For a day train from Atlanta I would try to have it start a bit later. But then again the Palmetto starts a little after 6 from NY.

Oh yeah, I am almost certain that no one will run two trains ten minutes apart late in the evening when they are otherwise trying to wind things down and tracks out of service for maintenance and such. I rather suspect that they will either want to run it as a single train north of WAS or force a transfer from one of them.
 
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I could see it being combined with the Palmetto north of Washington. That really shouldn't be too hard. It'll arrive slightly before the palmetto. Pull the Palmettos diesel and then take the electric with the Silver Moon and back into it
 
Well, you can combine it with the Palmetto...or you could do some sort of combo/transfer with 66/67 if your Atlanta times require it.

As to times in Florida, you've got a few choices there. One option is to mostly force off the short-haul traffic in FL ("fleeting" the trains out of Miami isn't going to cause much heartburn; if anything, FEC and/or CSX might appreciate that). Another would be to give the Silver Moon the "Tampa sidestep" and shift the Star to skip Tampa (or tinker with the schedule and slot this alongside the Star instead of the Meteor heading north). Another would be to actually combine the trains to JAX/SAV (take your pick, but I think JAX is more set up for it) and just deadhead part or all of the operating crews north. So, even precluding FL S-line operations there are multiple choices if you want this train to serve ORL.
 
My phone app is messing up the excel timetable like it messes everyone's up. So I'll comment more to that when I get on my desktop in a few hours. But my gut feeling is it's better to have the overnight section from JAX-ATL. Currently the way CSX runs trains in Florida there should be plenty of slots on the A line. And on the S line into Miami from Auburndale south shouldn't be that hard to get a slot
 
The excel chart didn't work. Try using Notepad with a code box (e.g. [code'][/code'] without the ' thrown in) instead...also to save on space, I recommend using a 24-hour clock (e.g. 0000-2359); that way you only use six character spaces per column plus the vertical bars. Using station codes (JAX, MIA, etc.) also saves on spaces as well.
 

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