RSC: Federal Funding For Amtrak & HSR On Chopping Block

[amtrakwolverine]

Don't be so sure about the future of passenger rail in Canada. Their idea of new equipment is rebuilding 60-year-old cars and buying surplus cars from Europe.

but it works don't it. They also rebuilt most of the f40 fleet.

 

[LA Resident]

First we had President George Bush and would-be president John McCain calling for the end of federal funding of Amtrak. Republican gubernatorial candidates joined the anti-rail chorus and campaigned on promises to refuse federal funds for passenger rail improvements and expansion if they couldn't be twisted and perverted into subsidies for trucks and automobiles instead. Now it looks as though the GOP-led House is not far behind on the bewildering but growing anti-rail bandwagon that is quickly developing into a fundamental platform position for the Republican party. Although there may not yet be enough Republicans in active office to completely defund Amtrak at this time the trend lines are clear. Presumably there will be some sort of reduction in a "compromise" between the House and the Senate. If the Republicans are able to regain political dominance Amtrak is likely to suffer a critical shortage of funds at their hands. I cannot predict exactly how much funding Amtrak will lose in a compromise bill or when the GOP will regain their former political clout, but I think it's safe to say it's going to happen eventually. The question that's bouncing around in my mind now is how much of Amtrak's current network can possibly survive on its own after all or most of their federal funding is finally lost?

[The Republican Study Committee] wants to eliminate Amtrak operating subsidies ($1.565 billion), which amounted to $32 per passenger in 2009. In 2009, 41 of Amtrak's 44 routes -- which service 500 destinations in 46 states -- lost money, indicating that, without the subsidies, Amtrak would have to significantly reduce or eliminate its service outside the heavily trafficked urban coastal routes. The plans also call for the elimination of Intercity and High Speed Rail Grants to the tune of $2.5 billion a year.

Link To Story...

Last I looked the Socialists stil had control of the Senate,the Presidency and had all the key appointed positions at all the departments of government. If you really believe that Amtrak will be defunded it will take votes from both parties so each will need to share the blame. This country is in bad shape owing to many factors; reckless overspending, moving our entire manufacturing base to Communist China and punitive unfair taxation. We are so far in the red that nothing can change it. Best that we can hope for is to maintain the existing Amtrak budget and have wage freezes for all of their employees like everyone else in the private sector is getting.

Socialists in charge but steadfast in support of our socialistic rail system. I guess that makes you a walking, or is it rail-riding contradiction? hboy:

 

[SP&S]

That being said, everybody should write to their boneheaded representatives in advocacy of Amtrak funding. Or go see them in person. And if you are going to go see people in person, keep in mind that you don't have to be from *state* to go to see *state's* representative and give him a piece of your mind.

Indeed, communicate your views to your senators and representatives. Most politicians do pay attention to constituent feedback. Even though my state's delegation is small, left-leaning and generally rail-friendly, I will still be emailing them on this issue. Since personal visits can be difficult, short, thoughtful, considerate and well-reasoned emails and letters are, IMHO, the best means of communication.

I'm not worried that Amtrak will be cut, but I am concerned enough to make my voice heard. I would humbly request that everybody who values Amtrak make their voices heard too.

 

[TransitGeek]

Last I looked the Socialists stil had control of the Senate,the Presidency and had all the key appointed positions at all the departments of government. If you really believe that Amtrak will be defunded it will take votes from both parties so each will need to share the blame. This country is in bad shape owing to many factors; reckless overspending, moving our entire manufacturing base to Communist China and punitive unfair taxation. We are so far in the red that nothing can change it. Best that we can hope for is to maintain the existing Amtrak budget and have wage freezes for all of their employees like everyone else in the private sector is getting.

There is only one Socialist in Congress- Senator Bernie Sanders, I-VT. I think you give him too much credit.

 

[Ryan]

Last I looked the Socialists

What Socialists?

 

[John Bredin]

Last I looked the Socialists stil had control of the Senate,the Presidency and had all the key appointed positions at all the departments of government.

In my reality -- the sky is blue and the grass green, as a reference check -- the Democrats control the Senate, Presidency and executive departments. What socialists, much less Socialists, hold any elected office in the United States (except for one guy from Vermont)?

If you really believe that Amtrak will be defunded it will take votes from both parties so each will need to share the blame.

True.

This country is in bad shape owing to many factors; reckless overspending,

Which started under a Republican President who was handed a surplus by his Democratic predecessor, and which arose when that Republican President decided to send Congress budgets that didn't include two wars. Since when do wars have their own revenue source independent of the general treasury so they can be in a separate budget? :blink:

moving our entire manufacturing base to Communist China

First, there are factories here, I've seen them. From passing trains even, to keep this on-topic. :giggle: Second and foremost, unless you're a socialist too, you must acknowledge that it wasn't our -- the government or society as a whole -- manufacturing base to command ipse dixit to "stay" here. It was and is owned by the companies that own the factories, whose shareholders have always included Americans and non-Americans and who have always been free to put their factories wherever they were legal.

and punitive unfair taxation.

Those rates weren't considered punitive under Reagan or Bush the Elder, or indeed any of the Republican presidents going back to Eisenhower. The Eisenhower tax rates were higher than any of the rates inherited by Bush the Lesser.

Best that we can hope for is to maintain the existing Amtrak budget and have wage freezes for all of their employees like everyone else in the private sector is getting.

Assuming for the sake of argument that the overall budget has to be frozen, what makes the highway or aviation budgets sacrosanct? <_< If the pie isn't going to get any bigger, I have no problem advocating taking some pie from the morbidly obese Federal Highways Administration and giving it to the skinny Federal Transit Administration and the emaciated Federal Railroad Administration and Amtrak. We don't need any new roads or airports, just enough to duly maintain the ones we have. We do need more transit and intercity rail.

 

[Ryan]

This country is in bad shape owing to many factors; reckless overspending,

Which started under a Republican President who was handed a surplus by his Democratic predecessor, and which arose when that Republican President decided to send Congress budgets that didn't include two wars. Since when do wars have their own revenue source independent of the general treasury so they can be in a separate budget? :blink:

Don't forget the "temporary" tax cuts that were jammed through using the budget reconciliation process that somehow became "undemocratic" when the 111th Congress used it.

moving our entire manufacturing base to Communist China

First, there are factories here, I've seen them. From passing trains even, to keep this on-topic. :giggle: Second and foremost, unless you're a socialist too, you must acknowledge that it wasn't our -- the government or society as a whole -- manufacturing base to command ipse dixit to "stay" here. It was and is owned by the companies that own the factories, whose shareholders have always included Americans and non-Americans and who have always been free to put their factories wherever they were legal.

In fact, never has more stuff been made in America. Never before have so few been so productive.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

By all means, let's panic and assume the very worst. That always works for me.

I don't think anyone is calling for panic. At least I hope not. It's true that Amtrak as it exists today is far from being completely defunded. Nor will it be defunded next week or next month or even next year. That still doesn't change the fact that the anti-rail crowd isn't changing course or going away. Rather they appear to be growing in size and power over time. Already we can kiss goodbye any notion of additional funding that might have addressed current issues and complications or helped us catch up with more modern systems. Even worse is the realization that after the extremist rhetoric dies down and a "compromise" with the Senate is in place we're still likely to see at least some cuts to passenger rail funding. I don't know about you but I don't consider a cut of any size to be a good thing in our current situation. Sure, we can postpone maintenance and service if we really want to, but eventually it will come back to bite us in the ass and already has in some cases. My main reason for drawing attention to this continuing development is that of genuine concern for the future. Nearly everything I'm reading today seems to be pointing to stronger and stronger rhetoric followed by deeper and deeper cuts down the road. In an era where our passenger rail network is already several decades behind contemporary rail systems I don't want to watch us fall even further and further behind. If average Americans aren't impressed with today's underfunded Amtrak they're going to be even less impressed with tomorrow's maintenance-deferred Amtrak. Not long ago it seemed like passenger rail was on the cusp of a major resurgence in America, but today it's only a couple swings away from being back on the ropes again. That's not a situation I find acceptable and I don't see why any other railfan would either.

 

[eagle628]

The republicans (in general, especially tea party types, not saying all of them are like that) are going to put up a great fuss about this, rather like what they did with the repeal of the health care bill in Congress, but like that, I think whatever happens will be largely symbolic. With a democratic senate and a democratic white house, I think any massive spending cuts in general (and Amtrak cuts in particular) are unlikely in the next year or so. That's not to say any spending cuts are impossible, nor that all is well and good because nothing's going to happen, because there will doubtless be a dem/repub compromise bill of some sort, but rather there's still time for us lowly citizens to try and do something about it before it's time for everyone to panic. The apocalypse is not nigh.

 

[JayPea]

When I made that post you refer to, Daxomni, I was replying specifically to the idea that 1) the gathering will not be held because there will be no Amtrak come October and 2) we should all move to Canada. I think those two ideas in my eyes constitutes panic.

I certainly don't want to see cuts of any size to Amtrak, either. There will always be cases where Amtrak or anyone else can make better use of the money they have. I have sent emails to both senators from my state (Amtrak supporters) and my representative (unfortunately, not an Amtrak supporter) stating my support for Amtrak.'

So to sum up, I was just referring to one certain post and nothing else.

 

[George Harris]

We've been down this road before.

Don't ever forget that one of the worst things that ever happened to Amtrak was Warrington and period of slogans without substance which happened when supposedly all the stars adn planets were aligned in Amtrak's favor.

As to people like oru Floridian: he is just spouting the usual anti-rail talking points. it is time to put a brain in gear to filter the intake of ear before output of mouth (or fingers as the case is here.)

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Tea Party scares me. Not in regard to rail in particular, but rather in general. They are a bunch of raving loons. Anybody with sense in their head should dismiss them as a bad joke. As people know, I lean to the left. I respect people who lean to the right. Like Mr. Harris. We disagree, but his positions are logical and reasonable and I wouldn't call them nuts.

The Tea Party is nuts. They want "smaller government". Wonderful buzzwords, applied as such they are just an election gambit. I can accept that.

But they seem to want cuts, for no rhyme or reason other than to cut and to make government smaller. The Tea Party took the CBO, listened to what they said, and dismissed it as utter nonsense because what they say doesn't make sense on the most superficial of levels.

Dismantling programs always cost money. Any politician should know that. You have to pay all kinds of costs when you get rid of something. The CBO came up with those costs- that is the CBOs job. Killing the health care bill this late in the game result in about $230 billion in sunk costs. End of discussion.

There are all kinds of reasons why someone could reasonbly not like the health care reform legislation. It has its positive points and its drawbacks. They ignore all of them and shout KILL KILL KILL! THE FACTS ARE A LIE KILL KILL KILL!

And for that I brand them as stupid, crazy, and scary. Remove all logic and sense from somebody and they become a destructive machine. Like a suicide bomber, except these people are using legislative bombs to unleash it on our government without rhyme or reason.

What's even scarier is that the American public voted for these lunatics. If the American people can't recognize that this is the kind of reform that will destroy us, then I am scared.

 

[Spokker]

I would support the de-funding of all rail-related ventures, including Amtrak, high speed rail and federal support for local projects, if Republicans pledge to make significant cuts in defense spending.

But that's the hypocrisy of it. They want their toys and we want ours.

 

[Ispolkom]

Don't forget the nude-o-scope machines at airports. Sure, some people find them intrusive, and they probably won't prevent terrorist attacks, but there are people making money off of them.

 

[Ryan]

It's funny that you should mention that...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/31/AR2009123102821.html

 

[AlanB]

Actually, George W. Bush did not propose 0 every year. The first few years, I think he was generous enough to propose a couple hundred million (still far too little to run the system). In the later years, he proposed 0.

Correct!

The White House only sent over a zero dollar budget to Congress for Amtrak in 2005 & 2006. Both times the Republican controlled Congress rejected that idea and gave Amtrak a small increase over the prior year.

 

[daveyb99]

Last I looked the Socialists stil had control of the Senate, the Presidency and had all the key appointed positions at all the departments of government.

Yet another lost sheeple. So Sad.....

 

[volkris]

Instead of complaining that you wouldn't be able to send every American (and every American child for generations) a bill for your personal pet project anymore, it'd be really nice to see the Amtrak supporters working on concrete solutions for funding their wants without demanding that federal government shake down fellow citizens for cash.

Step one? Get past "two wrongs make a right" arguments. They don't bring anyone to your side, don't grow your political clout, and only make you look like whiny children. That taxes are wrongly diverted to highways doesn't mean they should also be wrongly diverted to Amtrak. That taxes are diverted in countries around the world doesn't mean they should also be diverted here. Those two arguments are as widespread as they are unconvincing to anyone not already on board.

Then figure out ways to make Amtrak truly valuable to more customers instead of the badly run, surprisingly unreliable, amazingly customer unfriendly entity that it is today.

But most of all, get over your entitlement mentality; stop stomping your feet like children every time someone discusses whether or not you should get some money thrown your way and then complaining that it's never enough. It only hurts your cause.

Personally, after years of horrible experiences east of the Rockies I'm convinced the number one thing standing in the way of passenger rail in the US is Amtrak itself. The sooner it collapses the better, then we can start working on a system that actually works.

 

[Ryan]

Ah, just when this thread couldn't get any crazier.

"Acting like children" is right up there with "Socialists control the government" in statements that are completely fabricated out of thin air that only serve to make their author look like a complete loon. Let us know when you stop constructing strawmen to fit your own twisted and unrealistic world view and maybe we can have a reasonable conversation. Nobody is making any "two wrongs make a right" argument, because you're the only one making the case that federal spending on air and road transit is wrong.

 

[AlanB]

Personally, after years of horrible experiences east of the Rockies I'm convinced the number one thing standing in the way of passenger rail in the US is Amtrak itself. The sooner it collapses the better, then we can start working on a system that actually works.

If Amtrak collapses you won't be working on building a system that actually works. There will be no system, period.

When Amtrak goes away so do the agreements with the freight RR's and there will never be another sweet heart deal like Amtrak currently has. That only means that more money will be neeeded for any future service, which will only serve to make it unviable and unprofitable. You may not like the argument that roads & planes are subsidized, but the simple reality is that the free market does not exist as long as those subsidies are in place. And therefore passenger rail cannot exist on its own without subsidies for as long as the market is interferred with by government.

That means one of two things, either no passenger rail or subsidies to passenger rail.

 

[rrdude]

"................. but I am concerned enough to make my voice heard. I would humbly request that everybody who values Amtrak make their voices heard too."

This is the real issue. It flat-out SUX that we have to fight/voice-our-support on a regular basis, but it is what it is.

I challenge every member and guest of this forum to take FIVE MINUTES today, and fire off an email to each of their elected officials, regardless of whether they are "for" or "against" Amtrak today, and let them know you want them to SUPPORT add'l funding, and to FIGHT any cuts.

Click HERE for a link on contact info for your elected officials.

 

[Gratt]

I sympathize with the comments of everyone posting here even if we dont agree on other political issues (and isn't that what is great about this country ^_^ )

We all care about quality passenger rail in this country and we believe that it is in the public's benefit to ensure its survival and growth.

That means we need to find a way to make passenger rail a priority to BOTH political parties which will require different arguments.

The example I would give is what is generally defined as "energy independence" despite how inaccurate I believe the term is it is a bipartisan issue for very different reasons, Conservatives like it because they see it as freedom from outside influence a national security issue, liberals see it as an environmental issue. The result is while there is fighting progress is being made, 40% of our new electrical generation came from wind last year, and the CAFE standards on new cars are set to rise. That is progress, we can do the same for rail.

My first suggestion/question would be is their any way we can make tax cuts for freight RR = better passenger service. I think a lot of conservatives could support that.

 

[VentureForth]

It is no suprise to anyone here in the forums to know that I am staunchly conservative. That being said, I have always maintained that the Government (State or Federal) shouldn't be charged with playing trains.

As an avid train fan, I do enjoy the fact that Amtrak is still in service and I try to ride whenever I can - even if it's just for 30 minutes a year (which is about what my wife allows me to spend). Sure, I would love to see the Gov eliminate everything else before Amtrak, but I'm sure that all those food stamp recipients don't want their services cut either.

That all being said, I think that the whole Amtrak theology needs to be reinvented. Amtrak should not be a gift from God or Government, but a product of sound planning and fiscal responsibility.

It is true that just running trains is too expensive for any private enterprise to consider. However, a company can have a loss leader and still turn a profit if there are many profiting facets to the business model.

First focus on the NEC. Yes, that hurts me because I don't live on the NEC and I would not be a part of this. But hang on. EVERY station on the NEC, already owned and operated by Amtrak, should be chock full of rented retail space. There should be bulletin boards full of revenue advertising on the platforms and in the trains. The trains, ie: Acela, should be lengthened to meet a 90% occupancy demand rate so revenue isn't lost.

Then it gets tricky. Amtrak should own its own powerplants to power the Amtrak grid at wholesale cost. It should operate a surplus of energy and sell the rest.

The unions have got to get under control. Eliminate the pension. Establish a Roth or Traditional 401(k) retirement package. Cross train each employee within thier discipline. Align salaries with similar airline peers.

Reduce management to essentials. Demand outside contractors to perform to get paid.

Provide excellent customer service. Ridership may be up, but growth cannot be sustained if new riders only ride once because they hate the experience.

When this is successfully accomplished, then revenue should begin to outpace expenses.

Long distance routes should be accounted for with a proper overhead proration and should offer various levels of service that are consistent and established.

Quite frankly, I don't think Amtrak will get past the first step. Amtrak philosophy is more like a Theology - it can't ever seem to change. They keep trying and trying and trying the same thing and expecting different results. That is the definition of insanity.

As for the money going to Highways, I don't care if they want to reduce those and charge me tolls. But I-95 is in major need of some repair in this area and I travel it every single day. That's where I'd rather see my money spent.

 

[Grandpa D]

It is no suprise to anyone here in the forums to know that I am staunchly conservative. That being said, I have always maintained that the Government (State or Federal) shouldn't be charged with playing trains.

As an avid train fan, I do enjoy the fact that Amtrak is still in service and I try to ride whenever I can - even if it's just for 30 minutes a year (which is about what my wife allows me to spend). Sure, I would love to see the Gov eliminate everything else before Amtrak, but I'm sure that all those food stamp recipients don't want their services cut either.

That all being said, I think that the whole Amtrak theology needs to be reinvented. Amtrak should not be a gift from God or Government, but a product of sound planning and fiscal responsibility.

{snip}

You've got my vote.

 

[Ryan]

That all sounds great, but if there were money to be made doing that, private industry would be pushing to make that happen.

The fact is, there isn't enough revenue in selling ad space and extra power to subsidize passenger trains.