Runway Incursion and near miss at JFK

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jis

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Oddly enough the Union's objection is to the interview being recorded. That seems pretty strange to me and appears to the naive me to be a setup for maintaining subsequent deniability about anything that is said. The claim is that if it is recorded then the respondents cannot be fully candid. Apparently, my suspicion that there is stuff that happened that is not very savory may not be as unfounded as I was hoping it was.

The recent discussion on airliners.net is interesting to follow on this subject:

 
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Just-Thinking-51

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Safety culture at American Airlines? The forbidden subject of question the Captain authority? This will turn out badly for everyone. The pilots, union, the airline.

Again back to the early comments. Standard communication terminology.
Since the aircraft when straight and crossed a active runway. The additional of “turn right at Kilo” may of prevent the whole situation. Use a short clip of words only works when everyone on the same page.
Seem to be a missing phrase gains more important. Bridge of ship, or a cockpit of a airline. Multiple folks working together for a common goal. You need someone in charge, but you need a team to support and work with each other.
 

railiner

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Safety culture at American Airlines? The forbidden subject of question the Captain authority? This will turn out badly for everyone. The pilots, union, the airline.

Again back to the early comments. Standard communication terminology.

Seem to be a missing phrase gains more important. Bridge of ship, or a cockpit of a airline. Multiple folks working together for a common goal. You need someone in charge, but you need a team to support and work with each other.
That’s why I like my job, driving a coach…I don’t have to rely on such things as CRM…😉
 

Just-Thinking-51

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That’s why I like my job, driving a coach…I don’t have to rely on such things as CRM…😉
But you do rely on others. Had a very bad accident here in NY. A limousine overheated it’s brakes going down a long drawn out hill. Seem the owner had shopped the limousine recently for brakes, and the work was not done, incorrectly done, or was completely inappropriate for this size of vehicle. Anyway you look at it, something when wrong and people who were not physically involved in the accident were at fault. So while you and I are captains of our ship (vehicle), we do depend on others to finish the day safety. A design fault, poor construction, poor maintenance and we (the operators) have a bad day.
 
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jis

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The AA crew has finally agree to allow NTSB to interview them after they were served a subpoena by NTSB


This leaves one wondering what was exactly gained by the APA lawyers by running this side show.

Incidentally we learn from this article that United was also involved in a runway incursion in Honolulu within the last few months. The fact that no one heard of it outside the people involved and NTSB suggests that NTSB did not face as much difficulty in getting an interview with the crew.

And then there is Austin, which apparently had more to do with confused Tower.
 
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Bob Dylan

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The AA crew has finally agree to allow NTSB to interview them after they were served a subpoena by NTSB


This leaves one wondering what was exactly gained by the APA lawyers by running this side show.

Incidentally we learn from this article that United was also involved in a runway incursion in Honolulu within the last few months. The fact that no one heard of it outside the people involved and NTSB suggests that NTSB did not face as much difficulty in getting an interview with the crew.

And then there is Austin, which apparently had more to do with confused Tower.
Confused Controllers are more common than one hears about.

Several times during my Piloting Days ( Private Pilot) I was Cleared to Land @ Controlled Airports only to be "Waived off" before Landing due to other Aircraft ( mostly Airline and Cargo Jets) either TaxingAcross, Landing or Taking off on the same Runway as me!

The Scariest was @ San Antonio International where a Braniff 727 came over me right after I landed, and had to do a "Go Around"to keep from Landing on Top of my Cessna!😱
 
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Here's my take. I'm willing to bet the pilots were all prepped up to takeoff on 31L as they were using both 4L and 31L at intersection KE. Aircraft departing 4L will cross 31L at K, crossing behind departing aircraft on 31L. During preflight, we usually have a good idea to which runway we are using for takeoff, but sometimes it changes between then and the taxi out. I'm not sure if the runway configuration changed during this time though. So they probably had a 31L (full length) departure engrained in their heads then entire time. So now we have expectation bias. On taxi out, the FO did not read back the runway assignment. The ground controller didn't confirm it either. Then, when they got the clearance to cross 31L, she just rattled it off, probably because that was in their head of what they were going to do. Have you ever repeated something back without even deciphering what was said, and then you go "wait, what did you say again?" (my wife says I do that).

As to the controller not saying turn right on K and cross 31L...Yeah, I thought of that too. My controller friend said they don't have to give directions so it wasn't required. Perhaps the NTSB should recommend directions for this sort of thing? Maybe they will.
 

Bob Dylan

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Here's my take. I'm willing to bet the pilots were all prepped up to takeoff on 31L as they were using both 4L and 31L at intersection KE. Aircraft departing 4L will cross 31L at K, crossing behind departing aircraft on 31L. During preflight, we usually have a good idea to which runway we are using for takeoff, but sometimes it changes between then and the taxi out. I'm not sure if the runway configuration changed during this time though. So they probably had a 31L (full length) departure engrained in their heads then entire time. So now we have expectation bias. On taxi out, the FO did not read back the runway assignment. The ground controller didn't confirm it either. Then, when they got the clearance to cross 31L, she just rattled it off, probably because that was in their head of what they were going to do. Have you ever repeated something back without even deciphering what was said, and then you go "wait, what did you say again?" (my wife says I do that).

As to the controller not saying turn right on K and cross 31L...Yeah, I thought of that too. My controller friend said they don't have to give directions so it wasn't required. Perhaps the NTSB should recommend directions for this sort of thing? Maybe they will.
Good info from one who knows! Thanks Chris!
 

jis

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And here is the fallout from this incident. FAA working on changing regulations to require 25 hours of CVR recording retention.

 

acelafan

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It seems like a 25-hour voice recording is a no-brainer, but government doesn't move very fast.

Another thing that would be nice, but probably not enough bandwidth right now, is to have airlines upload their lat/lon coordinates to The Cloud via satellite at least every 5 minutes, so we don't have MH 370 stuff in the future. Of course you also have to make sure that the upload link cannot be severed by a rogue airplane pilot or other person.

It still amazes me in 2023 we have to look for flight data recorders in swamps, burned out wreckage, under the ocean (if they can even be found), etc. But I digress.
 
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It seems like a 25-hour voice recording is a no-brainer, but government doesn't move very fast.

Another thing that would be nice, but probably not enough bandwidth right now, is to have airlines upload their lat/lon coordinates to The Cloud via satellite at least every 5 minutes, so we don't have MH 370 stuff in the future. Of course you also have to make sure that the upload link cannot be severed by a rogue airplane pilot or other person.

It still amazes me in 2023 we have to look for flight data recorders in swamps, burned out wreckage, under the ocean (if they can even be found), etc. But I digress.

It will take forever just to get the paperwork together to approve a modified CVR, much less to replace the entire fleet.

I know that flight entertainment systems are not cockpit-grade quality, but if I can internet up and down all over the world from a plane, don't see why they can't add a VOIP.
 

Just-Thinking-51

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It seems like a 25-hour voice recording is a no-brainer, but government doesn't move very fast.
If it cost money then it will take time to require it, and time to install it. During this time the person or group that will have to pay for it, will be challenging it both in the courts and with lawmakers.
Another thing that would be nice, but probably not enough bandwidth right now, is to have airlines upload their lat/lon coordinates to The Cloud via satellite at least every 5 minutes, so we don't have MH 370 stuff in the future. Of course you also have to make sure that the upload link cannot be severed by a rogue airplane pilot or other person.
See above post.
It still amazes me in 2023 we have to look for flight data recorders in swamps, burned out wreckage, under the ocean (if they can even be found), etc. But I digress.
No it’s not unreasonable, but technology is change fast. So it’s hard to keep up.
 

jis

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If it cost money then it will take time to require it, and time to install it. During this time the person or group that will have to pay for it, will be challenging it both in the courts and with lawmakers.
Fortunately EU is ahead of the FAA on this and is in the process of forcing the issue. In effect FAA has to just tag along while EU forces the airlines to make the changes. EU generally is much better at getting such thing done than the endless dithering, hemming and hawing that has become the hallmark of the likes of various US agencies of late.
 

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Another thing that would be nice, but probably not enough bandwidth right now, is to have airlines upload their lat/lon coordinates to The Cloud via satellite at least every 5 minutes,

Guess what it is already in effect on ETOPS routes. Started some time already in the past on North Atlantic routes.
 

jis

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Could you please provide a citation supporting this claim? I looked in


and did not find anything about it.

Thanks.
I am guessing if one searches on combinations of ADS-B Satellite Space Based North Atlantic one will find reading material on this.

As far as tracking goes, the US ADS-B ground based tracking plus radar coverage is quite good? I know there have been search and rescue usage of ADS-B to track down mostly small aircraft crashes. One can turn off ADS-B but if it is installed, you are not suppsoed to. I think most all commercial airliner type traffic will have ADS-B. Aircraft that stay below 10,000 ft. and away from major airports do not have to install ADS-B. Space based updates are supposed to have position reports every 5-8 seconds. US ground based is once per second. NAV Canada generically manages the North Atlantic ADS-B
 
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jis

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I am guessing if one searches on combinations of ADS-B Satellite Space Based North Atlantic one will find reading material on this.

As far as tracking goes, the US ADS-B ground based tracking plus radar coverage is quite good? I know there have been search and rescue usage of ADS-B to track down mostly small aircraft crashes. One can turn off ADS-B but if it is installed, you are not suppsoed to. I think most all commercial airliner type traffic will have ADS-B. Aircraft that stay below 10,000 ft. and away from major airports do not have to install ADS-B. Space based updates are supposed to have position reports every 5-8 seconds. US ground based is once per second. NAV Canada generically manages the North Atlantic ADS-B
MH370 turned many things off including ADS-B. I wonder if it is possible to turn off feed to the black boxes.
 

west point

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MH370 turned many things off including ADS-B. I wonder if it is possible to turn off feed to the black boxes.
Just depends on where the C/Bs are located. There was talk at one time of requirement that the recorders would remain on if squat switch did not show aircraft on ground. If that has been implemented on new aircraft unknown.
 
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