San Francisco - Los Angeles Night Train proposals

[Crowbar_k]

https://www.sfgate.com/travel/article/la-sf-night-train-proposal-dreamstar-17891587.php
Think this could work? 300 dollars seems a little pricey, but if the price can go down a little, I think it could.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The company is negotiating with owners of classic streamliner-era railcars to equip the train, Eastmond said. The usual train would be five to six cars, all sleepers. One would include a lounge where passengers could order drinks or tavern food.

Could this work, yes. However the UP is a big issues. Does the UP allow passenger trains to run on there railroad, yes. I just think working with the state to add this service would be a easier lift.

The other issues is classic streamlined-era railcars. Daily service would be hard on this aging equipment. I would just like to see new equipment used.

So in recap, yes it can work. I would just approach the State to gain access to the tracks, and use new equipment to run this service.

 

[Crowbar_k]

Yeah, I feel like the right move would be to import whatever Nightjet is using. Specifically those new cars with the private sleeping bunks like this:

Another idea is to have something like that Australian sleeper train, with it's seats that convert into a bed, similar to business class intercontinental flights.
Not only this be more comfortable for passengers, but you can also fit a lot more passengers on each train, drastically reducing prices. but I suppose it's a lot cheaper to snag some streamliner cars because there are so many of them just laying around in America.

Now, I do see it as a good sign that they are already negotiating with UP.

 

[allanorn]

I'd give it a go for sure. $300 one way for a room + transportation isn't out of the question given how expensive hotels are in LA and SF. Companies have tried overnight buses between SF and LA; this is at least proven technology. I'd prefer more modern sleeper cars but at least using what they can get for a trial or initial startup is acceptable.

Ideally Amtrak California should be involved, and not necessarily Amtrak in DC. But if they can meet UP's demands, crazy as they might be, I could see this working if they get the pricing right.

 

[Crowbar_k]

There is currently a sleeper bus that runs from Nashville to DC. I'm shocked the company lasted this long.

But hey, the Auto-Train was a success. The only reason they went bankrupt was because of a too aggressive expansion to Louisville.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Spirit of Queensland with the lie flat seats may be a option. However that the only option for sleeping on the Spirit of Queensland train.

So these guys are operating in California and our American exceptionalism requires a private space. So a enclosure space might be required by the customers for this service to be sustainable.

 

[MARC Rider]

Spirit of Queensland with the lie flat seats may be a option. However that the only option for sleeping on the Spirit of Queensland train.

So these guys are operating in California and our American exceptionalism requires a private space. So a enclosure space might be required by the customers for this service to be sustainable.

American exceptionalists traveling on intercontinental flights of up to 19 hours seem to be fine with lie flat seating similar to the Spririt of Queensland. And a far larger number of American exceptionalists are perfectly OK crammed into coach class seating on those 19 hour flights. Which suggests that these guys should offer a cheaper coach class for their train.

 

[Crowbar_k]

Spirit of Queensland with the lie flat seats may be a option. However that the only option for sleeping on the Spirit of Queensland train.

So these guys are operating in California and our American exceptionalism requires a private space. So a enclosure space might be required by the customers for this service to be sustainable.

The spirit of Queensland is somewhat private. You have the option to book a single seat. Besides, americans have gotten used to lie fat business class on planes.

 

[Crowbar_k]

American exceptionalists traveling on intercontinental flights of up to 19 hours seem to be fine with lie flat seating similar to the Spririt of Queensland. And a far larger number of American exceptionalists are perfectly OK crammed into coach class seating on those 19 hour flights. Which suggests that these guys should offer a cheaper coach class for their train.

I don't think offering a coach class is a good idea. Nobody likes sleeping in a coach seat, so it would not offer a better alternative to flying. It's probably best to fit as many lie flat beds as possible on the train.

 

[MARC Rider]

I don't think offering a coach class is a good idea. Nobody likes sleeping in a coach seat, so it would not offer a better alternative to flying. It's probably best to fit as many lie flat beds as possible on the train.

"Nobody likes sleeping in a coach seat?" Ever ride the Night Owl? (NER 66 and 67) Also on my recent Auto Train Trip, there were slightly more passengers in coach tha in the sleepers.

 

[Crowbar_k]

The other issues is classic streamlined-era railcars. Daily service would be hard on this aging equipment. I would just like to see new equipment used.

Well, depending on how the Amtrak long distance fleet replacement goes, they might be able to snag some Viewliners for cheap.

 

[jis]

Well, depending on how the Amtrak long distance fleet replacement goes, they might be able to snag some Viewliners for cheap.

That is at least seven years away though

 

[Bob Dylan]

That is at least seven years away though

If not 10!!!

 

[MikefromCrete]

all these proposals to bring back 1950'a style trains have been a failure. I don't think this plan will go anywhere. The cars built in the 1940's and 50's are way beyond use on a daily basis -- just look at the Canadian. It's days are numbered without new cars.

 

[railiner]

all these proposals to bring back 1950'a style trains have been a failure. I don't think this plan will go anywhere. The cars built in the 1940's and 50's are way beyond use on a daily basis -- just look at the Canadian. It's days are numbered without new cars.

I’m afraid I have to agree with this. Only companies with “deep pockets” like Brightline seem to have the means to be a successful entrant into the passenger train business.

I would much rather see Amtrak bring back the overnight, “Spirit of California” if and when it could muster the necessary equipment.

I am surprised that the UP is even talking with them, and not just telling them to make arrangements with Amtrak or Caltrans…

 

[Crowbar_k]

all these proposals to bring back 1950'a style trains have been a failure. I don't think this plan will go anywhere. The cars built in the 1940's and 50's are way beyond use on a daily basis -- just look at the Canadian. It's days are numbered without new cars.

Remember the Vegas X-Train anyone?

 

[MARC Rider]

I could see an overnight train on the order of the Northeast Regional 66/67. The Oakland-LA travel time on the Coast Starlight is about 12 hours. This is a little longer than 66/67 between Boston and Washington. The intermediate stops of San Jose, San Luis Obispo and Santa Barabara don't have quite the same population as Providence, New York, Philadelphia, Wilmington and Baltimore, but I could see some early morning commute traffic being generated into LA and Oakland. Of course, this means that the train will need to have coach and business class accommodation as well as sleepers (though 66/67 has done quite well without sleeper service for years). Food service would be handled by a all-night cafe car.

 

[Crowbar_k]

I could see an overnight train on the order of the Northeast Regional 66/67. The Oakland-LA travel time on the Coast Starlight is about 12 hours. This is a little longer than 66/67 between Boston and Washington. The intermediate stops of San Jose, San Luis Obispo and Santa Barabara don't have quite the same population as Providence, New York, Philadelphia, Wilmington and Baltimore, but I could see some early morning commute traffic being generated into LA and Oakland. Of course, this means that the train will need to have coach and business class accommodation as well as sleepers (though 66/67 has done quite well without sleeper service for years). Food service would be handled by a all-night cafe car.

Who said anything about intermediate stops? I'm under the impression that the train is planned to run nonstop LA to SF, which frankly makes sense, as the service wouldn't be convenient for anyone traveling to or those cities. Those guys can take the Coast Starlight

 

[railiner]

Remember the Vegas X-Train anyone?

And the two iterations of a Boston - Montreal train?
Not saying this latest proposal is a scam, but I certainly would be cautious about venturing any capital into it…

 

[Anderson]

Who said anything about intermediate stops? I'm under the impression that the train is planned to run nonstop LA to SF, which frankly makes sense, as the service wouldn't be convenient for anyone traveling to or those cities. Those guys can take the Coast Starlight

Looking at Brightline, my suspicion is that they would probably have (or want to have) 2-3 stops at each end. There's no reason to "throw away" LAX-SJC traffic (or SFO-BUR traffic) when the arrivals would still be around 0730-0800 (and the departures before 2300). That being said, I could easily see running non-stop for about 6-8 hours in the middle. Note that the Spirit of California did pick up/drop off a decent number of riders on each of the ending segments.

Runtime is a challenge here due to the possibility of the crew dying (departing at 2200 and arriving at 0830 leaves almost no margin for error once you account for report time), but the possibility might be there to contract with one of the commuter agencies to cover them (i.e. just arrange for an operating crew swap at SJC or SBA). Doing this, particularly on the north end, would be helped by that being "commuter territory"...so they might be able to fiddle with something.

I'll vouch for the Spirit of Queensland's seats - I rode on them back in 2016/17 and they were good. I think a second-generation version of that design could work very well.

As to coach seats? I'd probably tag a coach on. Nobody likes it, but I could see folks springing for it. Look at how many pax take the Silvers from the NEC to Florida in coach (it's a majority of the market). The Auto Train regularly sells six figures of coach tickets each year. Now, it's quite possible that in both cases if the equipment were available you could sell an all-sleeper train, but IIRC the per-car yield is actually pretty decent in coach (and can be pushed up somewhat if you're not squeamish about doing so). So a train with 4-5 sleepers, a cafe, and a coach seems reasonable.

[As to doing so with old equipment? I'm never going to say never. If they could equip 3-4 trainsets with them (probably cheaper than two sets of new stuff), that might do the trick, especially if they're willing to gut the cars and overhaul them. And heck, maybe VIA will decide to dump its remaining Chateaus...]

As to UP talking to them, @railiner , if I had to guess UP will probably run just about anything for enough money.

 

[jiml]

The British overnight trains - Night Riviera and all iterations of the Caledonian Sleeper - have seated coaches in addition to compartments. It would seem essential to filling a train and making it economically viable.

 

[Brian Battuello]

I rode on the Lark once. Just saying.

 

[railiner]

As to UP talking to them, @railiner , if I had to guess UP will probably run just about anything for enough money.

You may be right today, but IIRC, in the past, “host railroads” would not entertain any proposals to run private trains over their railroad, and would divert all such, to arrange it thru Amtrak.
It might have been a legal requirement at one time for all so-called “member” railroads to only allow Amtrak to operate passenger trains on their lines, but that may have changed at some point…

 

[TinCan782]

Who said anything about intermediate stops? I'm under the impression that the train is planned to run nonstop LA to SF, which frankly makes sense, as the service wouldn't be convenient for anyone traveling to or those cities. Those guys can take the Coast Starlight

From the article: "The train would stop at existing stations along the route, such as Santa Barbara, San Jose and San Luis Obispo. This would require agreements with stations’ owners, which vary by city."

 

[ehbowen]

From the article: "The train would stop at existing stations along the route, such as Santa Barbara, San Jose and San Luis Obispo. This would require agreements with stations’ owners, which vary by city."

If the city or county owns & manages the station, they'll probably be reasonable. But if it's Amtrak...well, back in the '90s there was a short-lived weekend passenger service between Houston and Galveston called the Texas Limited (which operated over UP/ex-GH&H). They initially operated out of the Houston Amshack, but Amtrak got so greedy that they found it cheaper to build their own station a few miles west in The Heights (ex-MK&T trackage, now gone)!