Security procedure invasiveness?

[Guest]

Thanks everyone for the feedback, and thanks jsreeves for the video. We don't mind dogs sniffing us or our luggage, but I would not react well if someone scanned or touched our daughter, badge or not, so I try to avoid those situations. Sounds like the trains in the US are still a viable option for us for now.

 

[the_traveler]

I agree. "Voluntary" to me does not mean "Comply or here's your money back, but you can not travel". At least to me the word voluntary means you have a choice to comply or not.

In prison, you have to do what you're told, even if the guards say please. I would not call that "voluntary". I may be wrong, but the choice is "Comply or go back to your cell". I doubt it means "You don't have to do this, and if you chose not to, you can go into town tonight"!

 

[George Harris]

The rationale behind the whole TSA thing started as a protection of the passenger by protecting the planes and passengers from those that would do them damage. Remember it is relatively easy to blow a plane out of the sky and get to the cockpit and therefore the pilot. Over time this has morphed into we need to know who you are and what you are carrying and various other things as their whims dictate.

The basic reason does not apply to trains at all. It takes a lot of explosive to do any real damage to a train. The engineer is generally inaccessible, and it is somewhat difficult to get a train to follow any path other than straight down the rails, to say the least. Therefore, we are left with only the "we need to know what you are up to" aspects, in other words, the control portions which should not be any part of the government's business in a free country.

I can accept the idea of the drug sniffing dog. I can accept the concept that the train crew can have a trouble maker put of the trains into the welcoming arms of some law enforcement agency, but this whole "guilty until proven innocent" aspect of the current search and inspection operation in airports and now sneaking into other transportation modes is simply turning what should be our country's legal system unside down.

So far as I am concerned, the government has no business knowing why and where I am traveling, what I am carrying unless it is harmful to those around me, or even who I am when I am traveling. It is an invasion of privacy to demand an answer to these things.

 

[BCL]

So far as I am concerned, the government has no business knowing why and where I am traveling, what I am carrying unless it is harmful to those around me, or even who I am when I am traveling. It is an invasion of privacy to demand an answer to these things.

Then definitely don't leave the country. Some government employee will ask upon return.
Heck - even with domestic travel there are different inspection. I had a USDA inspection of a carryon bag when I left Hawaii. Upon entering California there may be border inspection stations. It's considered voluntary, but failure to comply can result in a vehicle being denied entry. The system has been in place since the 1920s and has survived Constitutional muster.

 

[JayPea]

So far as I am concerned, the government has no business knowing why and where I am traveling, what I am carrying unless it is harmful to those around me, or even who I am when I am traveling. It is an invasion of privacy to demand an answer to these things.

Then definitely don't leave the country. Some government employee will ask upon return.
Heck - even with domestic travel there are different inspection. I had a USDA inspection of a carryon bag when I left Hawaii. Upon entering California there may be border inspection stations. It's considered voluntary, but failure to comply can result in a vehicle being denied entry. The system has been in place since the 1920s and has survived Constitutional muster.

One time, and one time only, while on a SWC trip from Chicago to Los Angeles (and then to Seattle on the CS), I was asked my name, where I was going, etc. This was at Albuquerque, and the "interviewer" in question was a plain-clothes Albuquerque cop. I didn't see the reason then nor do I now of asking such questions, but I'm sure to the dismay of those who think answering such questions amounts to being a "sheeple", I did answer them. I suppose the alternative would have been a huge hassle, culminated by being escorted from the train. Not worth it, in my book. Luckily I was going to Los Angeles and then on to Seattle; I don't know what would have happened if I'd been headed to Chemult or Wishram or some other equally obscure outpost. :wacko:

The most invasive interrogation I've ever had was, ironically, on a road trip, and, even more ironically, pre 9-11. I took a day trip into Canada, to enjoy the sights and to take some photos, and, on my return back to the U.S. was greeted by a very surly young woman who absolutely did not seem to believe one thing I said. :angry: She didn't believe I'd come into Canada just for the heck of it (the border is only a few hours away from me so it's not like I drove days to get there), refused to believe me when I told her where I worked, even though I was wearing a jacket with my employer's name and logo on it, and got angrier every time I didn't give here the answer she wanted. :angry: She ended by insisting on a hand search through the trunk of my car and through my fishing tackle box. The interrogation only ended when, in the pursuit of God knows what, got a handful of fish hooks for her trouble. Just what you'd expect to get while rummaging around a tackle box, especially with dusk setting in! She was madder than ever at that point, but decided to cut her losses (after cutting her hand :lol: ) and let me go.

 

[George Harris]

So far as I am concerned, the government has no business knowing why and where I am traveling, what I am carrying unless it is harmful to those around me, or even who I am when I am traveling. It is an invasion of privacy to demand an answer to these things.

Then definitely don't leave the country. Some government employee will ask upon return.
Heck - even with domestic travel there are different inspection. I had a USDA inspection of a carryon bag when I left Hawaii. Upon entering California there may be border inspection stations. It's considered voluntary, but failure to comply can result in a vehicle being denied entry. The system has been in place since the 1920s and has survived Constitutional muster.

Since I spent the most part of 17 years working outside the country, I had noticed that. During that time, I was in and out between once and twice a year, and had probably about the same number of boder crossing between other countries, except for one period of two years where on average I made a round trip between Hong Kong and Taiwan on average about every 3 weeks. And, in that time, I will have to say that the least professional, least consistent, and in many ways also the least proficient customs inspection has been that of the US. One of my high points in silly questions was once coming in through Seattle, I think it was, being asked by they guy who was holding my US passport in hand, "Why are you entering the United States?" I am thinking, what is the trick here? while giving him the straight and simple answer.

Since the Hawaii - California inspections are related to plant diseases and parisites, I tend to regard these as legitimate. After all, the point is to control the movement of pests, not of persons. You dump the non-allowed substances and you are on your way.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Personally, I don't care what the government knows about me. I don't see privacy as a constitutional right. So, they can search me and my bags. It starts to bother me when I'm restricted from doing things that aren't harmful - like bringing a drink, knitting needles, or a sandwich onboard. In my opinion, if the TSA can't tell the difference between a sandwich and a bomb, they need to either A) prohibit air travel altogether, or B) warn everyone of the risks and let them get on with life.

 

[BCL]

So far as I am concerned, the government has no business knowing why and where I am traveling, what I am carrying unless it is harmful to those around me, or even who I am when I am traveling. It is an invasion of privacy to demand an answer to these things.

Then definitely don't leave the country. Some government employee will ask upon return.
Heck - even with domestic travel there are different inspection. I had a USDA inspection of a carryon bag when I left Hawaii. Upon entering California there may be border inspection stations. It's considered voluntary, but failure to comply can result in a vehicle being denied entry. The system has been in place since the 1920s and has survived Constitutional muster.

Since I spent the most part of 17 years working outside the country, I had noticed that. During that time, I was in and out between once and twice a year, and had probably about the same number of boder crossing between other countries, except for one period of two years where on average I made a round trip between Hong Kong and Taiwan on average about every 3 weeks. And, in that time, I will have to say that the least professional, least consistent, and in many ways also the least proficient customs inspection has been that of the US. One of my high points in silly questions was once coming in through Seattle, I think it was, being asked by they guy who was holding my US passport in hand, "Why are you entering the United States?" I am thinking, what is the trick here? while giving him the straight and simple answer.

Since the Hawaii - California inspections are related to plant diseases and parisites, I tend to regard these as legitimate. After all, the point is to control the movement of pests, not of persons. You dump the non-allowed substances and you are on your way.

I wouldn't disagree that US Customs agents aren't less than proficient. However, their raison d'être is to discover contraband and to find stuff that they can levy duties with. Maybe they ask stupid questions, but I do think there's a method to it. A lot of times nervous people bringing in contraband or hiding something expensive they bought overseas do get tripped up over simple questions.

 

[amamba]

I would like to add that the amtrak police routinely sets up in the PVD station and they swab the bags of all passengers boarding amtrak trains. This is the only station that I have seem they do this. Although they haven't done it for the past couple of months.

But I think it is incorrect to say that the OP won't run into any security or searches on a train trip. There surely is a likelihood that it won't happen, but it might. I have also been asked for ID on trains before, too, by the conductor.

 

[George Harris]

I wouldn't disagree that US Customs agents aren't less than proficient. However, their raison d'être is to discover contraband and to find stuff that they can levy duties with. Maybe they ask stupid questions, but I do think there's a method to it. A lot of times nervous people bringing in contraband or hiding something expensive they bought overseas do get tripped up over simple questions.

Since my usual return to the US was some 15 to 20 hours after walking out of my door on the Asian end after being up for much of the night before if a "day" flight or a full day work plus if a "night" flight, I was usually considerably less than coherent by the time I went through customs. I am a citizen, You looked to see that I am bringing in nothing illegal. There is no need for anything else. As to the foreigner, there is very little difference: I have a visa, You looked to see that I am bringing in nothing illegal. There is no need for anything else. That for the foreigner's visa, particularly for the hoops you have to jump through to get a visa. We have seen friends that wanted to come for a visit turned down because "Your English is too good. Prove you will not become an illegal immigrant." How do you prove you are not going to do something?

 

[BCL]

I wouldn't disagree that US Customs agents aren't less than proficient. However, their raison d'être is to discover contraband and to find stuff that they can levy duties with. Maybe they ask stupid questions, but I do think there's a method to it. A lot of times nervous people bringing in contraband or hiding something expensive they bought overseas do get tripped up over simple questions.

Since my usual return to the US was some 15 to 20 hours after walking out of my door on the Asian end after being up for much of the night before if a "day" flight or a full day work plus if a "night" flight, I was usually considerably less than coherent by the time I went through customs. I am a citizen, You looked to see that I am bringing in nothing illegal. There is no need for anything else. As to the foreigner, there is very little difference: I have a visa, You looked to see that I am bringing in nothing illegal. There is no need for anything else. That for the foreigner's visa, particularly for the hoops you have to jump through to get a visa. We have seen friends that wanted to come for a visit turned down because "Your English is too good. Prove you will not become an illegal immigrant." How do you prove you are not going to do something?

Again, it's more than just contraband they're looking for. They're supposed to assess duties on items purchased overseas beyond the limit of $800 per person.

And you'd be surprised at some of the things I've seen. Once I brought some abalone. It was a gift at the airport although we didn't have Ziploc bag and actually carried it wet on some napkins. I figured it was worth declaring rather than getting in trouble. The customs agent took one look at it and said that was fine. I also had Vegemite (actually extras from an attendant on a dining car in Australia). I didn't know how to describe it, so I said "yeast extract". He kind of scratched his head and asked to see it. Once I showed it to him, it was "Oh - Vegemite - that's OK".

The weirdest thing I ever saw was the woman in front of me in the US citizen/pemanent resident line. She filled her form and the Customs agent actually waved her through after looking over the form. Then he changed his mind and told her to stop. He wanted to find someone who spoke Mandarin to ask her if she knew what the heck she was doing, because apparently what she put down didn't make that much sense. I'm guessing she might have been a naturalized US citizen whose ability to understand English was actually pretty poor (I've known a few in my day).

 

[the_traveler]

I would like to add that the amtrak police routinely sets up in the PVD station and they swab the bags of all passengers boarding amtrak trains. This is the only station that I have seem they do this.

I was at MKA (the airport train station) a few years back, taking a MKE bound train. During the wait, there was a CHI bound train due. TSA set up a table and swabbed all passengers bags. After the CHI bound train had left, the TSA agents also left to return to the airport.

There was no webbing of bags for MKE bound passengers.

 

[JoeBas]

Personally, I don't care what the government knows about me.

Says the man in the black mask... h34r:

I don't see privacy as a constitutional right. So, they can search me and my bags.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." -- Some Really Smart Old Dudes.

I've read this time and again. I've even read it in an original copy. And nowhere in it do I see anything in parentheses that says "Unless you're really, REALLY scared". I've looked time and again and again for the little asterisk leading to the fine print at the bottom that says "Unless some scary brown people attack us, in which case all bets are off".

What part of "Shall not be" do people have such a hard time understanding? :blink: :huh:

 

[trainman74]

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." -- Some Really Smart Old Dudes.

Of course, one person's "unreasonable" search is another person's "perfectly reasonable" search. That, among other reasons, is why we have the judicial system, to interpret such things.

(Note: I am not personally opining that TSA searches of Amtrak passengers are "perfectly reasonable.")

 

[winterskigirl]

Since when does the TSA do "voluntary searches" ??? Crap!! The last option for freedom in traveling America is going away.

 

[BCL]

Since when does the TSA do "voluntary searches" ??? Crap!! The last option for freedom in traveling America is going away.

Technically TSA only does "voluntary searches". If you don't consent to their procedures you can be denied boarding, etc. At any time you can walk away from a TSA search. You may have some place you're trying to get to, but legally there's no "civil right" to transportation.

An "involuntary search" would be something like police searching a vehicle or person because they have probable cause, or if a search warrant is issued. One can't simply walk away from that.

 

[JoeBas]

Of course, if you try to walk away from an airport TSA screening once it's started, they'll threaten you with an $11,000 civil fine.

But that's still voluntary... in their world.

 

[white rabbitt]

Since the Hawaii - California inspections are related to plant diseases and parisites, I tend to regard these as legitimate. After all, the point is to control the movement of pests, not of persons.

there are a whole lot of human pests lol lol lol lol :giggle:

 

[janet something]

I have never been searched on the amtrak and I have taken it across country more than 5 times.. from coast to coast.. Not even at the big station in Chicago, although I heard there was a drug sniffing dog that walked around, I have never seen it. Maybe it is because i was always in a sleeper and when you have a sleeper, you have access to the special room for 1st class ticket holders where they have "luggage valet", free drinks, snacks, wi-fi, plug in's, etc.. You board the train from that room, don't have to go into the terminal (unless you smoke and wanna go outside), but your luggage stays inside in a separate room with a handler. Now, the Greyhound, on the other hand, in Cleveland OHIO, we were searched by agents while standing in line to board the bus going to baltimore. No dog though, but 2 agents going through your bags.. (I suppose the 2nd agent was looking for anything the 1st agent might have missed).. People had to throw away knives, nail clippers, anything with a point, etc.. (and that was at 4 in the morning)..

 

[iggy]

There is more than just a "cute dog" at Union Station Chicago. Actually on many recent trips I haven't even seen the dogs. Granted on most of those trips I was in Metropolitan Lounge. The TSA has had their hooks in Chicago Union Station for awhile. Announcements are made that random passengers will be selected for inspection. The only invasive I have seen is privacy being violated - by TSA rummaging through your belongings.

Only once have I had to deal with this = years ago catching an Amtrak booked Greyhound to Las Vegas out of Salt Lake City Utah - TSA employee actually damaged a few things in my bathroom bag - but process didn't get touchy feely or invasive.

 

[SarahZ]

I don't mind the random purse check, since I do that when I go to concerts, baseball games, and other public events as well. Purse checks are not limited to transportation alone. Anyway, I don't get an X-ray or a pat-down, and I don't have to take half of my clothing off and send it through a machine. So, really, the random purse checks at CUS are not a big deal in my mind.

I've never seen an actual TSA officer there. I'm not saying they don't exist; I've just never seen them in all the times I've been there. Maybe they aren't wearing blue gloves? /shrug I don't pay that much attention.

 

[oldtimer]

There is more than just a "cute dog" at Union Station Chicago. Actually on many recent trips I haven't even seen the dogs. Granted on most of those trips I was in Metropolitan Lounge. The TSA has had their hooks in Chicago Union Station for awhile. Announcements are made that random passengers will be selected for inspection. The only invasive I have seen is privacy being violated - by TSA rummaging through your belongings.

Only once have I had to deal with this = years ago catching an Amtrak booked Greyhound to Las Vegas out of Salt Lake City Utah - TSA employee actually damaged a few things in my bathroom bag - but process didn't get touchy feely or invasive.

I know that the TSA not the Amtrak PD were out in full force on February 28, 2014. They seemed to be chatting up people while the dog was randomly sniffing the person's bag. I don't know if they were following a profile or not. The TSA was definitely in charge as there was even an agent of the TSA sitting at the Amtrak Police Department desk.

 

[BCL]

Maybe not train related, but I saw a bunch of DHS Police at the Ferry Building in San Francisco as I was waiting to take an Amtrak bus. They were walking around in uniform and were mostly waiting for the ferries to board and offload passengers. I was talking to the Amtrak staffer at the station building, and he said they sometimes look at what's happening with the Amtrak passengers.

Sounds like they have wide discretion to monitor all forms of transportation.

 

[Anderson]

I've had my bags swabbed at CUS. Only time that ever happened (notwithstanding border crossings). Other than that, I've seen some "cute dogs" at WAS and NYP. There's some "show of force" military security at NYP as well, but they don't seem to do anything and I've never seen them interact with anyone but the occasionally horribly lost person randomly asking them for directions (which I have seen at least once).

Edit: Besides that, the only time I've seen DHS was at Orlando once when I was getting off the Meteor. That's the only time I've seen DHS show up, and given a mix of reputations I sometimes wonder if their presence on the Florida routes isn't actually drug-related more than anything.

 

[SarahZ]

Why does everyone keep putting "cute dogs" in quotes like that? In my original post, which was ages ago, I said they are drug dogs and then added, later, that they are cute and I wish I could pet them. I wasn't trying to diminish the service they provide or sound like a dopey preteen. My apologies (and embarrassment) if it came off that way. :blush: