Semi-Inverted Second Crescent?

[Phil S]

Has there ever been a train running roughly the following schedule?

Semi

Inverted

Crescent Crescent

NOL 700A 1130N

MEI 1102A 332P

BHM 215P 641P

ATL 735P 005A

GRV 1053P 323A

CLT 121A 551A

GRO 337A 807A

LYH 552A 1022A

CVS 709A 1139P

WAS 953A 213P

NYP 148P 618P

The idea is to give the NC cities an alternative route to the NE and most importantly for me, a way to get from NC to CVS in time to catch #51 (just barely) Doesn't make the eastbound SL connection any better though you do get a decent night's sleep, even if #2 is late. And you still make the #29 connection in WAS, though too late for #49.

All this is daydreaming. Still - thoughts? Corrections to the arithmetic, please? Other connection issues?

 

[zephyr17]

Never by Amtrak, nor Southern during the Amtrak era. I'll look in my 1961 Official Guide when I find the darn thing.

As to an additional schedule on the route, most LD routes could benefit from an "inverted" (roughly 12 hours off) companion schedule. They aren't going to get it. As noted in the "National Network" thread, there are a lot of "fill in the blanks" routes which would be beneficial, too. Those aren't going to happen, either. Between the House of Representatives wanting to cut Amtrak funding, lack of equipment, and railroad resistance to additional Amtrak schedules, any new LD service is an EXTREMELY steep hill to climb (like 90 degrees).

 

[Anderson]

Southern ran an "inverted Crescent" until sometime in the 1970s in the form of the Piedmont Limited, but it was only ATL-WAS.

The biggest issue with trying to get additional LD service at the moment is equipment, followed by the fact that you could probably allocate another 100 Superlines, 100 Viewliners, and 100 Amfleets without making the existing trains "too long":
-In the East, the Silvers can arguably go to 18 cars, the LSL-NYP to about 11-12, the LSL-BOS could probably stretch to 6, and a daily Cardinal could probably get into the 12-car range before you start having severe platforming issues. You could also see a revived Broadway (either as a separate train or as an expanded piggyback on the Cap/Penny) and a re-extended Silver Palm/Palmetto.

-In the West, most of those trains could probably add a sleeper if the demand and cars were there. Ditto a coach. Beyond this, you start needing different mixes of food service cars (either an intermediate option or additional capacity becomes necessary).

Going down the list, let's assume that Amtrak were to stretch the LD trains in the East to their practical limits amid rising demand:

-Silver Meteor (4 each): 8 sleepers, 2 dining cars (one acting as a diner-club, the other as a full diner), 1 cafe, 7 coaches

-Silver Star (4 each): 8 sleepers, 2 dining cars (one acting as a diner-club, the other as a full diner), 1 cafe, 7 coaches

-Crescent (4 each): 8 sleepers, 2 dining cars (one acting as a diner-club, the other as a full diner), 1 cafe, 7 coaches

-LSL-NYP (3 each): 4 sleepers, 1 dining car, 1 cafe, 5 coaches

-LSL-BOS (3 each): 2 sleepers, 1 dining car, 3 coaches

-Cardinal (3 each): 3 sleepers, 1 dining car, 1 cafe, 5 coaches

-Pennsylvnian-CHI (3 each): 3 sleepers, 1 dining car, 2 coaches

-Shoreliner-through (2 each): 2 sleepers, 1 cafe, 4 coaches

-Shoreliner-BOS/NYP (2 each): 1 sleeper

-Shoreliner-NYP/WAS (2 each): 1 sleeper

Right there, without adding a slot anywhere (though requiring double spots, nothing not found in the "old days" back in the 70s), I've burned 140 sleepers before spares. On top of that, you're looking at 36 diners, 137 coaches, and a raft of cafe cars, all plus spares. Now, I do know that the consists might look different in their exact makeup, but my point is that Amtrak could probably triple their LDSL sleeper fleet and not need to add a frequency. Not only that, but a long Silver Palm would probably burn another 32 sleepers, so...again, not a single train is actually "added" but you're probably at 200 sleepers once spares, shopped cars, etc. are taken into account. Amtrak currently has 50.

Now, to be fair, if Amtrak was packing trains that long to near capacity, based on what we've seen about direct operating costs, most or all of those trains would probably be in the black on that account and posting relatively small fully-allocated costs (think CR of 75% or so on that front) and Amtrak would have a business case for adding those frequencies that isn't there at the present. Bear in mind that the ridership for this to work would probably be 175-200% of what it is presently (basically, the Silvers would be over two million riders vs. about one million now, the LSL would be getting up into the 600-750k range, etc.).

 

[jphjaxfl]

In the 1950s, the Southern Railway, A&WP/WRA, L&N ran 3 trains each day in each direction from Washington to New Orleans via Charlotte, Atlanta, Montgomery, and Mobile. The trains were the Crescent which had through Sleepers only from New York, the Piedmont Limited which also had through Sleepers from New York to New Orleans, but also set out sleepers to and from various points and the Washington - Atlanta - New Orleans Express. The train with the closest schedule to what you suggest is the later which acording to the 1957 offficial guilde is as follows:

Lv New Orleans 10:30AM

Lv Atlanta 12;30AM

Charlotte: 7:50AM

Charlottesville: 2:30PM

Ar Washington: 5:15PM

Connected with the 6:00PM train to New York arriving at 9:50PM. This train from New Orleans to Washington was very slow and carried lots of mail and express. It did carry sleeping cars from Atlanta to Columbia and Atlanta to Washington. It had full dining service from New Orleans to Montgomery and a dinette from Charlotte to Monroe, VA.

Southern/N&W also operated a through Washington New Orleans train via Roanoke, Chattanooga and Birmingham with through sleepers from New York. That was in addition to the Southerner which operated via the current Amtrak Crescent route. Pennsylvannia/L&N also operated through Sleeping Car Service from New York to New Orleans via Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Louisville, Nashville, Birmingham, Montgomery and Mobile. Sad that there is only 1 train a day from Washington to New Orleans now.

 

[RampWidget]

The train with the closest schedule to what you suggest is the later which acording to the 1957 offficial guilde is as follows:Lv New Orleans 10:30AM

Lv Atlanta 12;30AM

Charlotte: 7:50AM

Charlottesville: 2:30PM

Ar Washington: 5:15PM

Was that the Peach Queen, or am I thinking of a different Sou. Ry. train?

 

[Notelvis]

As late as 1968 Southern also operated 'The Pelican' from New York to New Orleans via Washington, Charlottesville, Lynchburg (then via Norfolk & Western) to Roanoke and Bristol (back to SR) via Chattanooga, Birmingham, Meridian, and New Orleans.

It was carded as follows in December 1967

#41 #42

6:30pm New York, NY 8:00am

11:35pm Washington, DC 3:50am

1:57am Charlottesville, VA 12:15am

3:50am Lynchburg, VA 10:40pm

5:00am Roanoke, VA 9:30pm

10:30am Bristol, VA 5:05pm

2:10pm Knoxville, TN 1:10pm

6:15pm Chattanooga, TN 9:50am

9:20pm Birmingham, AL 5:00am

1:30am Meridian, MS 1:00am

6:35am New Orleans, LA 8:00pm

By 1967 this would have been a pretty long trip....... the single sleeper remaining operated only from New York to Chattanooga and the only onboard dining service available was a N&W diner/lounge added to the consist between Roanoke and Bristol. Otherwise passengers could purchase 'box meals' placed aboard the train in places like Johnson City, Knoxville, and Chattanooga.

 

[Notelvis]

The train with the closest schedule to what you suggest is the later which acording to the 1957 offficial guilde is as follows:Lv New Orleans 10:30AM

Lv Atlanta 12;30AM

Charlotte: 7:50AM

Charlottesville: 2:30PM

Ar Washington: 5:15PM

Was that the Peach Queen, or am I thinking of a different Sou. Ry. train?

That may have been the original northbound 'Piedmont Limited'.

The 'Peach Queen' as I remember it (from reading and timetables) was a one way (southbound) train to balance the timetable in the 1960's.

That's because Southern's 'Crescent' and 'Southerner' were combined from New York to Atlanta. The 'Crescent' then continued to New Orleans via Montgomery on the A&WP and L&N. The 'Southerner' operated to New Orleans via Birmingham on the all SR route used by today's 'Crescent'.

Northbound the 'Southerner' (which operated on the route and schedule that most resembles today's 'Crescent') and 'Crescent' departed New Orleans about 10-12 hours apart and continued to operate as two separate trains north of Atlanta.

 

[crescent2]

Ah, the good old days.

Can't imagine so many trains through Atlanta! *sigh* And didn't some go through Atlanta to Savannah and on to Florida as well?

I know there was one that went through and stopped in my small town (probably on an ATL-Columbus or ATL-Macon route), because my mother said she used to take it for daytrips to shop in Atlanta at Rich's and Davison's. That was before my time.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The train with the closest schedule to what you suggest is the later which acording to the 1957 offficial guilde is as follows:Lv New Orleans 10:30AM

Lv Atlanta 12;30AM

Charlotte: 7:50AM

Charlottesville: 2:30PM

Ar Washington: 5:15PM

Was that the Peach Queen, or am I thinking of a different Sou. Ry. train?

That may have been the original northbound 'Piedmont Limited'.

The 'Peach Queen' as I remember it (from reading and timetables) was a one way (southbound) train to balance the timetable in the 1960's.

That's because Southern's 'Crescent' and 'Southerner' were combined from New York to Atlanta. The 'Crescent' then continued to New Orleans via Montgomery on the A&WP and L&N. The 'Southerner' operated to New Orleans via Birmingham on the all SR route used by today's 'Crescent'.

Northbound the 'Southerner' (which operated on the route and schedule that most resembles today's 'Crescent') and 'Crescent' departed New Orleans about 10-12 hours apart and continued to operate as two separate trains north of Atlanta.

You are speaking of the trains as they were during the attempts to stay alive in the declining years.. Through the 50s when I grew up the Crescent, Southerner ,Piedmont Limited, Peach Queen were all completely separate trains

The Washington Atlanta New Orleans Express never really all the way to NOL in my time. The trains below Montgomery were connections. At times the northbound connection from NOL to Montgomery was the Humming Bird, a sleek L&N streamliner

 

[Notelvis]

That's correct Bill.

I'm afraid my awareness only goes back to the 1960's when the passenger industry was in full decline.

I never got to ride the Super Chiefs or Panama Limiteds but I do remember the two coach remnant of the Carolina Special and got to ride Southern's 3&4, Piedmont (with piggybacks on the rear), and Southern Crescent after most everyone else had only Amtrak.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Ah, the good old days. Can't imagine so many trains through Atlanta! *sigh* And didn't some go through Atlanta to Savannah and on to Florida as well?

I know there was one that went through and stopped in my small town (probably on an ATL-Columbus or ATL-Macon route), because my mother said she used to take it for daytrips to shop in Atlanta at Rich's and Davison's. That was before my time.

What is the name of the small town? I would like to look it up so I can tell what train. Also, what might be the date range of your mother's trips?

 

[xyzzy]

I agree with previous replies. There is zero likelihood of a second train running on the ex-Southern from Greensboro northward. Connecting to/from 51 is a micro-market.

If Amtrak acquires additional passenger cars, the financial priority must be to lengthen existing trains.

In the early 1960s, besides the already-mentioned NY-Atlanta-New Orleans trains, there were still several midwest-Atlanta-Florida trains as well as Atlanta-Savannah, Atlanta-Augusta-Florence-Wilmington, Atlanta-Columbus, and Birmingham-Atlanta-NY on the SAL.

 

[Phil S]

As I said, this was just daydreaming. But having lived in Knoxville for a while in the early 70s (next to the L&N tracks) I have to admit, K'ville to NYC in a sleeper would sure have been fun. Also, Anderson's list of what could profitably be put to use by Amtrak was eye-opening.

As late as 1968 Southern also operated 'The Pelican' from New York to New Orleans via Washington, Charlottesville, Lynchburg (then via Norfolk & Western) to Roanoke and Bristol (back to SR) via Chattanooga, Birmingham, Meridian, and New Orleans.
It was carded as follows in December 1967

#41 #42

6:30pm New York, NY 8:00am

11:35pm Washington, DC 3:50am

1:57am Charlottesville, VA 12:15am

3:50am Lynchburg, VA 10:40pm

5:00am Roanoke, VA 9:30pm

10:30am Bristol, VA 5:05pm

2:10pm Knoxville, TN 1:10pm

6:15pm Chattanooga, TN 9:50am

9:20pm Birmingham, AL 5:00am

1:30am Meridian, MS 1:00am

6:35am New Orleans, LA 8:00pm

By 1967 this would have been a pretty long trip....... the single sleeper remaining operated only from New York to Chattanooga and the only onboard dining service available was a N&W diner/lounge added to the consist between Roanoke and Bristol. Otherwise passengers could purchase 'box meals' placed aboard the train in places like Johnson City, Knoxville, and Chattanooga.

ful thinking and an interest in how things used to be.

 

[Anderson]

Well, my point was more the sheer mass of equipment that the system as it stands now has the theoretical potential to use is something that doesn't get thought about much.

Out west, it's actually almost unbelievable how much equipment you could sink into some of the routes...assuming you went to six sets for the Builder, you've got 22 sets for the SWC, CZ, EB, and CS. I'm not sure what the practical limits on those trains' lengths are, but at 12-14 cars you could swallow another 150+ sleepers. Adding in the Eagle, CONO, Sunset, and Cap you probably get somewhere between 200-250 total sleepers...again, without adding any trains.

 

[henryj]

The Southern ran the Crescent on an opposite schedule from what it runs now as it connected with the Sunset Limited in New Orleans and carried through LA to DC & NY coast to coast sleepers.. The schedule in 1956 northbound was lv NOL 11pm, Atlanta 1:45pm. Wash DC 4:55am and arrive in NY 9:00am. The return schedule was lv NY 2:00pm, Wash DC 6:10pm, Atlanta 8:15am and arr NOL 6:55pm. The Sunset at that time was overnight between NOL and Houston westbound so it did connect. The train ran through Mobile and Montgomery. The Southerner ran on a similar schedule to what it does now except about 2 hours later southbound and it went via Birmingham. Out of New Orleans the Southern also ran the Piedmont Ltd, the Pelican, and the Washington-Atlanta-New Orleans express. Looking at old Official Guides, it is really mind boggling how many trains there were compared to todays skeleton system.

 

[Phil S]

Well, my point was more the sheer mass of equipment that the system as it stands now has the theoretical potential to use is something that doesn't get thought about much.
Out west, it's actually almost unbelievable how much equipment you could sink into some of the routes...assuming you went to six sets for the Builder, you've got 22 sets for the SWC, CZ, EB, and CS. I'm not sure what the practical limits on those trains' lengths are, but at 12-14 cars you could swallow another 150+ sleepers. Adding in the Eagle, CONO, Sunset, and Cap you probably get somewhere between 200-250 total sleepers...again, without adding any trains.

Not to mention the Cardinal (which almost always sells out its sleepers), and now-extinct Night Owl (WAS-BOS). I bet a lot of people would be delighted to travel that route while they sleep comfortably, downtown to downtown. I did it once. so long ago I barely remember. The idea that that train runs both ways every night, with no sleepers, boggles my mind.

On train length, the likely limiting factor now is platform length, already a problem on some trains, but of course readily solved.

 

[Anderson]

Well, my point was more the sheer mass of equipment that the system as it stands now has the theoretical potential to use is something that doesn't get thought about much.
Out west, it's actually almost unbelievable how much equipment you could sink into some of the routes...assuming you went to six sets for the Builder, you've got 22 sets for the SWC, CZ, EB, and CS. I'm not sure what the practical limits on those trains' lengths are, but at 12-14 cars you could swallow another 150+ sleepers. Adding in the Eagle, CONO, Sunset, and Cap you probably get somewhere between 200-250 total sleepers...again, without adding any trains.

Not to mention the Cardinal (which almost always sells out its sleepers), and now-extinct Night Owl (WAS-BOS). I bet a lot of people would be delighted to travel that route while they sleep comfortably, downtown to downtown. I did it once. so long ago I barely remember. The idea that that train runs both ways every night, with no sleepers, boggles my mind.

On train length, the likely limiting factor now is platform length, already a problem on some trains, but of course readily solved.

I listed those in my "master list" of single-level trains, assuming 2 sleepers running the length of the route and then one each WAS-NYP and NYP-BOS as a set-out.

Platform length is a limiting factor; it can be solved up to a point, but there's a limit in every case eventually. There's also an issue with HEP getting stressed beyond about 18 cars (which is coincidentally the limit of the longest platforms at NYP and some other stations)...so I think you could extend to 18 cars, but not beyond. The Florida Special from 1956/7 ran about 16 cars long, so I assume that a cap in the 16-18 range is reasonable: Probably 16 on a regular basis and 18 at the peaks (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.).

The other thing is that once the train hits that length, it's probably far enough in the black on direct costs that serious talk about adding frequencies would enter into the picture...after all, at that point Amtrak would be providing a substantial share of the tourist travel to Florida I suspect, so they'd probably start to get pressure from the state side of things (and/or some funding).

 

[henryj]

The Southern ran the Crescent on an opposite schedule from what it runs now as it connected with the Sunset Limited in New Orleans and carried through LA to DC & NY coast to coast sleepers.. The schedule in 1956 northbound was lv NOL 11pm, Atlanta 1:45pm. Wash DC 4:55am and arrive in NY 9:00am. The return schedule was lv NY 2:00pm, Wash DC 6:10pm, Atlanta 8:15am and arr NOL 6:55pm. The Sunset at that time was overnight between NOL and Houston westbound so it did connect. The train ran through Mobile and Montgomery. The Southerner ran on a similar schedule to what it does now except about 2 hours later southbound and it went via Birmingham. Out of New Orleans the Southern also ran the Piedmont Ltd, the Pelican, and the Washington-Atlanta-New Orleans express. Looking at old Official Guides, it is really mind boggling how many trains there were compared to todays skeleton system.

Near as I can tell the Crescent operated on this schedule northbound until around 1969. Southbound it had been combined with the Southerner north of Atlanta as the two trains were on similar schedules anyway. The route through Mobile and Montgomery was discontinued after 1969 and the combined train then operated through Birmingham, entirely on the Southern tracks and was then dubbed the Southern Crescent. As the Southern opted out of Amtrak until much later, it was privately operated with Amtrak forwarding it north between DC and NY until the Southern finally give up and let Amtrak have the whole route. So the answer to the question is a semi-inverted Crescent operated until 1969. Given the sparse traffic south of Atlanta it is doubtful any of this could be done today. There simply is no need for a morning arrival train in NY that runs through DC at 4am. All this type of traffic now days flys. Perhaps a coach day train from New Orleans via Mobile and Montgomery that turns around in Atlanta would work. The southern states seem to be completely devoid of any corridor type service.

 

[George Harris]

I would suspect that an early morning arrival in New York, mid to late evening departure out of New York train on the Southern route to Atlanta would do reasonably well. The train should have an early morning, that is reasonably early not ridiculously early, arrival in Charlotte southbound.

 

[Notelvis]

I would suspect that an early morning arrival in New York, mid to late evening departure out of New York train on the Southern route to Atlanta would do reasonably well. The train should have an early morning, that is reasonably early not ridiculously early, arrival in Charlotte southbound.

I would love to see a second NYP-ATL train with an evening departure, early morning arrival from/to New York.

However, as an alternative to the straight SR route, I'd not mind seeing this train operate south of DC on CSX then NS via Richmond, Selma, Raleigh, and Greensboro then down to Atlanta via Southern. Perhaps this train could assume the schedules of the NCDOT Piedmonts #73 & #76 between Raleigh and Charlotte freeing a consist up for an additional frequency between those cities.

So..... we're talking departing NYP around, say, 8pm, Raleigh around 7am, Charlotte 10 something am, and Atlanta around 3pm.

Northbound out of Atlanta say 1:00pm, Charlotte 5:30pm, Raleigh 8pm, NYP the next morning around 7am.

Of course the serious drawback here is a 22-hour layover for the consist in Atlanta....... unless you want to cut the sleeper off this new train in Atlanta at 3pm and send it back on the Crescent (increasing the Crescent's capacity north of Atlanta) at 8pm!

 

[henryj]

It's a nice dream, but it just isn't going to happen. Your lucky if the Crescent can even continue as it is now.

 

[Anderson]

A point: Nothing says that you couldn't "fix" the 22 hour ATL layover by running the set out to BHM...Southern did this with the Crescent back in the 70s: It was daily that far, and then 3x weekly BHM-NOL.

 

[crescent2]

@ Bill: Praven. *jk*

(editing to remove hometown, been up long enough for Bill to have seen by now)

The shopping trips would have probably been between the mid 30's and the late 40's, but I'm not sure. I'm fairly certain it was before the late 50's, though.

 

[George Harris]

I would suspect that an early morning arrival in New York, mid to late evening departure out of New York train on the Southern route to Atlanta would do reasonably well. The train should have an early morning, that is reasonably early not ridiculously early, arrival in Charlotte southbound.

I would love to see a second NYP-ATL train with an evening departure, early morning arrival from/to New York.

However, as an alternative to the straight SR route, I'd not mind seeing this train operate south of DC on CSX then NS via Richmond, Selma, Raleigh, and Greensboro then down to Atlanta via Southern. Perhaps this train could assume the schedules of the NCDOT Piedmonts #73 & #76 between Raleigh and Charlotte freeing a consist up for an additional frequency between those cities.

So..... we're talking departing NYP around, say, 8pm, Raleigh around 7am, Charlotte 10 something am, and Atlanta around 3pm.

Northbound out of Atlanta say 1:00pm, Charlotte 5:30pm, Raleigh 8pm, NYP the next morning around 7am.

Of course the serious drawback here is a 22-hour layover for the consist in Atlanta....... unless you want to cut the sleeper off this new train in Atlanta at 3pm and send it back on the Crescent (increasing the Crescent's capacity north of Atlanta) at 8pm!

Continue to Birmingham.

While we are dreaming and considering that route, how about one this way that would have an early morning arrival in Atlanta, late evening departure from Atlanta with the northbound having an early morning arrival in Raleigh.

Let's keep going west with your 3:00pm arrival in Atlanta: 6:00pm B'ham, 9:00pm Meridian MS, 4:00am Shreveport, 8:00am Dallas. Reversing: 9:00pm Dallas, 1:00pm Shreveport, 5:00am Meridian, 8:00am B'ham, 1:00pm Atlanta. The Crescent-Star lives.

 

[Ryan]

OK, Newnan.

That's were my in-laws live - lovely town. Shame that you can't take the train there anymore, that would certainly make life easier when we visit!