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John Bobinyec

John Bobinyec

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There was a "service" pony that boarded 80 at Burlington today (8/30/2015) and got off at Durham. It returned on 75.

When asked why was the pony necessary, the gentleman traveling with the pony said he had high blood pressure.

They had to use a lift to get it on and off the trains. They put it in the part of the coach where they anchor wheelchairs.

I got this story from someone who was on 75 and witnessed it - right from the horse's mouth, you might say.

"A horse is a horse, of course, of course ...."

jb
 
Wow. I guess you never know what you'll see on Amtrak. Looks like the trains had a few extra minutes of dwell time at BNC and DNC, too.
 
Since I've never heard about anyone lying about service pony (as opposed to lying about service dogs) I find the question and the answer interesting.

There are only two questions you can legally ask of a person with a service animal:

(1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform.

You can't ask what the disability is and the person is under no requirement to state what it is.

So I'm totally guessing here that the animal here helps carry items and provides support for the person due to his high blood pressure. (so I don't doubt he has high blood pressure, just surprised it was actually mentioned.)
 
Since the OP is not an eye-witness but relating a story he heard from a third party, I was skeptical at first and thought the friend might be joshing to see how far this would go. But before making an "ass" (donkey) of myself I decided to do some research, and I can now place this incident in the realm of the possible.

Here are two websites that I found helpful and others may too:

1. http://www.guidehorse.com/

2. https://www.google.com/search?q=service+pony&biw=1920&bih=955&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QsARqFQoTCI-As6G10scCFQIWHgodb2cPDw

I would still like some eye-witness testimony!!
 
MikefromCrete said:
Wow, really, a horse. A horse that helps control high blood pressure. Shakes his head.
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Apparently miniature horses are so good at detecting and controlling high blood pressure that some hospitals are retiring their sphygmomanometers and training the horses to prescribe and dispense prescription drugs.
 
I think the problem is that a situation like this puts the conductor on the spot. I think Amtrak should require each disabled person who needs a service animal to apply for a special "permit" that Amtrak corporate would issue. In order to get one, the person would have to provide information that would allow this Amtrak person to do research and make a decision, considering the nature of the affliction, the service the animal provides and the practicality of carrying that animal species on a train.

When it comes time to board a train, the permit would be presented and the conductor would simply allow the person and service animal to board. No permit? Then you don't board.

Sometimes it's just not practical to take a certain species of animal on-board. Can you imagine what would happen to the OTHER passengers' blood pressure if someone brought on-board a service snake or a service rat?

jb
 
John Bobinyec said:
I think the problem is that a situation like this puts the conductor on the spot. I think Amtrak should require each disabled person who needs a service animal to apply for a special "permit" that Amtrak corporate would issue. In order to get one, the person would have to provide information that would allow this Amtrak person to do research and make a decision, considering the nature of the affliction, the service the animal provides and the practicality of carrying that animal species on a train.

When it comes time to board a train, the permit would be presented and the conductor would simply allow the person and service animal to board. No permit? Then you don't board.

Sometimes it's just not practical to take a certain species of animal on-board. Can you imagine what would happen to the OTHER passengers' blood pressure if someone brought on-board a service snake or a service rat?

jb
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This would be an ADA violation. However, the rules got tightened a few years ago so other animals (rabbits, snakes, rats, monkeys, cats, etc) are clearly not service animals. They can be emotional support animals (allowed in pet-free rentals) but not service animals (allowed in restaurants, hospitals, transportation, and most everywhere else). Now only dogs can be service animals, and miniature horses in slightly more limited cases. Here is DOJ info.
 
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Title III of the ADA - public access - deals with miniature horses.

They must be individually trained to DO WORK or PERFORM A TASK for the alleged

Disabled person.

It must be a documented service animal. A therapy animal is not defined under Federal statute.

Methinks lowering blood pressure is not something you train an animal to do, that is, performing a task or doing work.

It is, however, a cheap way of shipping my pet.

If passengers are allergic to the horsey, you have to accommodate them, too.

Dept of Justice memos go as far as recommending filtered breathing apparatus for

The sufferer.

Look it up. This is the current state of the law that protects the disabled and gives refuge to the charlatans who are abusing the disabled in their own way.

Can anyone sell me a loose chain for my service bear? He's been trained to make me feel good by ripping off the heads of those who scam the system with Internet purchased "therapy, service and comfort" animal certificates and blankets, causing the public to look down on or be suspicious of those in real need. "Kill, BooBoo, kill! Good bear. Now I feel better."
 
Here in the US a properly trained service animal can easily reach luxury sedan or even exotic sports car prices. Which is probably why you don't see more service animals on a regular basis. That being the case I cannot understand why the training institutions already in place cannot implement a licensing and tracking system that is reasonably hard to fake but is quickly and easily verified by businesses which are legally barred from making their own determinations of legitimacy. As currently implemented the ADA rules come across like a system designed to protect abuse in order to spare owners from having to answer even obvious inquiries. I don't usually agree with the anti-PC crowd but in the case of the ADA's legally binding censorship rules I'm hard pressed to explain how this isn't an example of the pro-PC crowd taking things too far.
 
I would love to see a service horse on a train, or bus. Great. Why not? If it enhances someone's life.

I never understand why able bodied folk feel the need to get involved in stuff that does not concern them?

If you need help from an animal, so be it... if not, maybe just be thankful?

Ed :cool:
 
As I've said before, I always considered service animals to be some of my favorite passengers. Always friendly, and never a behavior problem. We once had a dog who bit someone. Obviously NOT a well-trained service dog, or not a service dog at all. Never encountered a horse, but we were trained to know that such things are possible. This led to lighthearted jokes/speculation about "service giraffes" and "service dolphins". I never had much respect for the obvious fakes, but sometimes couldn't do anything about it. The law is pretty porous, but I don't know how to change it and be fair to everybody. My real sympathy was always with the other passengers who are allergic to the animals. They are the ones who have the forgotten disability. We would try to move them, but that wasn't always possible on a very crowded train. It's like a law that mandates that long-tailed cats must live in a room full of rocking chairs. Can't prohibit folks from rocking. A solution that is both fair and practical seems pretty elusive.

Tom
 
They changed the definitions and requirements for Service Animals a short while back, mostly due to all the abuse.

An animal who's primary purpose is Comfort or Companionship, is no longer legally considered to be a service animal.

A service animal has to have been trained by an officially recognized facility. For example, an animal that is claimed to provide assistant to the blind, has to have been trained by a place like Guiding Eyes, and not simply your neighbor's kid.
 
caravanman said:
I would love to see a service horse on a train, or bus. Great. Why not? If it enhances someone's life. I never understand why able bodied folk feel the need to get involved in stuff that does not concern them? If you need help from an animal, so be it... if not, maybe just be thankful?
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Why not?

Maybe because our buses and trains aren't setup for hauling horses around. Maybe because many non-disabled people seem to be abusing a privileged that was never intended for them. Maybe because fixing the little problems is all that's left now that those in charge have mostly given up on all the bigger problems. Interestingly enough it actually took a lot of able bodied folks getting involved in matters that did not immediately concern us to pass the ADA in the first place, Ed. Getting involved in matters beyond our immediate concern was the only way this was ever going to happen.

I continue to support the core motives and goals of the ADA, but when people on this forum started suggesting that paid and ticketed passengers without disabilities should be forcibly removed from lower level seats and compartments in order to make room for a last minute disabled person in a hurry I did not agree with that. Just because I support special treatment for a given minority doesn't mean that I'm willing to hand them a blank check that can be cashed in for any crazy thing that pops into their heads.
 
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I'm with DA on part of what he said, on forcibly moving ticketed people without disabilities, on "blank checks," and especially about able bodied folks passed the ADA to start with. As a PWD, I'm appalled about the abuse by people with and without disabilities. I acquired my disability a few years before the ADA was passed and have seen the huge improvements in access accompanied by increased obvious abuse.

Re horses, miniature horses are the only kind the ADA accepts as service animals. I've never seen a service horse but have seen miniature horses at places like county fairs. They are about the size of a large dog, and I don't mean really large dog, I mean like a lab with a shaggy coat. This is from the DOJ memo quoted earlier, the rules for service dogs all still apply:

Entities covered by the ADA must modify their policies to permit miniature horses where reasonable. The regulations set out four assessment factors to assist entities in determining whether miniature horses can be accommodated in their facility. The assessment factors are (1) whether the miniature horse is housebroken; (2) whether the miniature horse is under the owner’s control; (3) whether the facility can accommodate the miniature horse’s type, size, and weight; and (4) whether the miniature horse’s presence will not compromise legitimate safety requirements necessary for safe operation of the facility.
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Personally, I suspect these animals are less likely to be fake service animals than dogs, but maybe that's just because some fancy actress hasn't made them fashionable yet and they don't fit in a purse.
 
It did happen. I talked to the two NC Hosts who were riding the train. I know them personally. I read the report that they will be turning in to the NCDOT. And I too wish they had taken some pictures. They didn't because the (human) passenger was quite belligerent. He was already upset that the pony couldn't be right next to him - in the aisle. The hosts felt that if they stood there taking pictures of this, it would just upset him even more. He also got upset when the animal was on the lift and the lift was being operated. The lift itself is quite a contraption - if you've ever seen one. At some point the side towards the train lowers to become a bridge plate - with a bit of a "clang". This upset the pony a bit. That in turn upset the passenger, too.

jb
 
Maybe I'm visualising the mini horse as smaller than it is or the wheelchair area in the cars as larger than real life. Wouldn't the service horse fit at the handlers feet as they sit in the front row seat? Maybe mini horses are different but every service dog I've encountered has been at thier persons feet in 99% of seated in public situations.
 
The two NC Hosts were on train 75. That's NCDOT equipment. The seats go right up to the front of the car. Behind the last row of seats on the left is the area where wheelchairs would go. That's where the pony was kept. But that was BEHIND the passenger. If the seat were turned so that it would be facing backwards, then the pony would have been in front of the passenger.

jb
 
John Bobinyec said:
It did happen. I talked to the two NC Hosts who were riding the train. I know them personally. I read the report that they will be turning in to the NCDOT. And I too wish they had taken some pictures. They didn't because the (human) passenger was quite belligerent. He was already upset that the pony couldn't be right next to him - in the aisle. The hosts felt that if they stood there taking pictures of this, it would just upset him even more. He also got upset when the animal was on the lift and the lift was being operated. The lift itself is quite a contraption - if you've ever seen one. At some point the side towards the train lowers to become a bridge plate - with a bit of a "clang". This upset the pony a bit. That in turn upset the passenger, too.

jb
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Yes, the hosts were correct in not invading the man's privacy further by taking pictures he might not want posted.
 
It sounds as if the passenger was new to train riding and/or new to service animals in general and/or new to that particular animal. Obviously more training is in order for both partners.

I have to make a separate reservation for my wheelchair, I'm not allowed unreserved even when ambulatory people are, I can be denied boarding if my chair does not have a reservation and all of the spaces are already committed. If customer service can get ahold of the passenger, he might do better in the future to phone for a reservation and say how much space he needs and why. They could also offer training at the station for the horse to get used to the lift, those are smart animals with good memories and it shouldn't be a problem. Although I don't know why the horse couldn't just take the stairs like everyone else, maybe the passenger needed the lift.

Some people here have implied that service animals maybe don't improve blood pressure, but I could see that although blood pressure might be his medical problem, it might not be the disability. The disability might be he can't walk independently for very far, for instance, where a horse would give much better support than a cane or walker. Or the disability could be neurological stroke damage where the horse could help with gait better than a cane, or notify the man of hazards such as traffic that he might ignore. It would be generous for the train staff to assume his belligerence was because of frustration from a bad day in new situations and it sounds as if that is exactly how they treated him.
 
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