Amtrak Service Reductions

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Trains provide by far the best social distancing compared to planes or buses.
In a sleeper, most likely. In coach? Well... the advantage is not as clear - especially if Amtrak is, as you say, filling all of the seats they are offering for sale. The seat next to you may be unoccupied, but there are still people within six feet.

Aircraft air is completely refreshed, on average, every three minutes. Except for some regional jets, airplanes have HEPA filters. Additionally, cabins are divided into separate ventilation sections about every seven rows of seats, which means that you share air only with those those in your immediate environment and not with someone ten rows back. When the plane is on the ground, however, air circulation in the cabin can be greatly reduced. You also have to be in the airport terminal longer than you have to be at a train station thanks to TSA and check-in times.

I've actually been hoping to see a scientific analysis of which is safer, at least in coach class. I've seen a couple of articles that try to address the issue, but nothing coming close to a deep dive.
 
Aircraft air is completely refreshed, on average, every three minutes. Except for some regional jets, airplanes have HEPA filters. Additionally, cabins are divided into separate ventilation sections about every seven rows of seats, which means that you share air only with those those in your immediate environment and not with someone ten rows back. When the plane is on the ground, however, air circulation in the cabin can be greatly reduced. You also have to be in the airport terminal longer than you have to be at a train station thanks to TSA and check-in times.

where are you getting this info ? All the aircraft that I am familiar the airplanes do not turn over air very fast. They only exhaust air is thru some small ventilation holes and the outflow valve. That valve helps main cabin altitude. HEPA filters ? No certifications before about 1995 at earliest. Ventilation of Airplanes all exhaust air thru the holes and outflow valve(s) mentioned. So passengers will get all the air sooner or later. Air circulation on ground depends on source. If APU then as in the air. On ground AC unit enters thru port on aircraft thru regular air craft circulation system usually near the AC packs..
 
where are you getting this info ?
Here: Airplane air: not as bad as you think

And here: How Clean Is the Air on Planes?

Another factor is the length of time that you are sitting. Are you better taking a three hour flight from Boston to Chicago or a twenty-two hour train ride in coach? I am struggling to see how the latter is safer.

Bottom line: The "safest" option depends on a lot of factors. I don't think it's fair to make a sweeping statement that train travel is safer any more than I think it's fair to say that all air travel is safer. Not every train ride is alike, and not every flight is alike. And not everyone agrees on the level of risk that they are willing to take.

I am flying a 10 seat airplane to Boston on Saturday and taking the subway into town. The plane still has several seats for sale, so I am hoping that it is pretty empty. But I would be lying if I said that I was not very nervous.
 
I appreciate your sentiment, but look at the airlines. They have absolutely slashed capacity, which often results in lengthy connections. Thanks to a resurgence of Covid-19, especially in the south, the airlines are eliminating many of the flights that they were going to add in August and September. This isn't about increasing profits. This is about survival.

Well yes that is true the airlines have slashed capacity and in some cases service to select cities what they are doing is nowhere near comparable to what Amtrak is proposing and is now doing to my home routes. The airlines often times are running multiple frequencies per day between two cities with the exception of a handful of more vanity routes. The AS Flight to CHS or the LH flight to CLT being examples of both. It should be noted that both of those routes are designed around a significant business travel the AS flight deals with Boeing traffic, and the LH route involves BMW traffic.

For instance from my home airport of Columbia, SC (CAE) the load factor standardly is 83 percent for the CAE-CLT connection flight which operates 7 times per day on average. If American Airlines who is the carrier contracting the various regionals PSA (subsidiary of AA), Republic, Sky West, etc..... to operate that route decides to slash capacity on that route they have to cancel a frequency, so instead of the average of every 2 hour service we drop to twice a day service. That still doesn't equate to what Amtrak did to the Silver Star.

American could probably preserve that 83 percent load factor by slashing capacity by cutting the frequency to three times daily flights between the two cities and it would still be considered a very usable service. Amtrak cut the 14 Weekly departures down to 6 which is 42 percent of the normal schedule. AA slashed capacity by eliminating two daily flights in each direction or 14 departures a week. Down from 49 departures or 28 percent. Of note the two flights they canceled are the ones that cater mostly to business travel first in the morning, last in the evening making connections to most destinations.

Which tells me that the business market is the one that isn't doing as well as the leisure market. Looking at the flights for tomorrow in the computer it looks like tomorrows load factor bar any late purchases is around 62 percent which isn't god awful.

Amtrak in Columbia generally boards/detrains 42 passengers per train per day according to RPA which is almost a full Amfleet II coach, couple that with the other exclusive stops to the Silver Star route and you are filling a single Amfleet II Coach on just those markets. That isn't counting anything from Raleigh north to points south of Savannah.

So if AA's load factor declined by 21 percent let's just use that for the base line example on Amtrak instead of getting 42 passengers you are now getting 8 less passengers per night per train. I'm basing that on leisure travel making a faster come back than business travel based on the assumption of that is what the AA traffic patterns are showing me.

So by Amtrak inflicting a completely short sided cut on a strong leisure route they are really selling themselves short. Tri Weekly doesn't have to be god awful for Columbia except they chose to stack all of our service days on weekends which makes absolutely no sense from a passenger service stand point.

My point is that these cuts Amtrak has made so far are detrimental to the service, and detrimental to the health of Amtrak.

Now all that being said that is basing large assumptions on one small market that is only serviced in the middle of the night on Amtrak and by regional jets by the big three airlines (except one or two DL Mainline jets).

I would be happy to look up any AA route to compile it's load factor, and it's normal capacity, and it's current capacity.

I love Amtrak, I love flying, and above all I love researching the transportation business.
 
One important difference is that the airlines' terminal facilities will still be waiting for them to restore services and the traffic control will just come up with whatever is needed to squeeze in more flights (see attached O'Hare scene). When Amtrak wants to increase service it can take months of negotiations with the Class Ones. They start with whatever is currently in effect as being too much and then it's necessary to weed through a bunch of red herrings.

1976 025.jpg
 
I can't stand David Peter Alan. He is so out of touch and thinks that there is this grand conspiring to eliminate the long distance routes for no reason, which does not make any sense when you start to think about it. I do not necessarily agree with Amtrak's plan to cut the long distance routes but I still can't stand him.
Of course, it's worse when one thinks of the reasons that might explain it.

In my dealings with Amtrak and VIA Rail from the West since 1971 I've frequently run into people in decision-making positions who just did not know a lot about points west of Harrisburg or Sudbury. It was never a complete surprise, because my father worked from home and in the 1960's I heard him more than once on the phone trying to explain Far Corner geography to someone in New York City. Overlay that with serious issues and long-distance trains are at risk, as they have been since the USDOT Railpax plan in 1970.
 
Here is a stat that has been ignored and of course may have changed since last published. At present 1.6 million persons have fully recovered in the USA. Of the number at one time it was published that those recovered have 25% suffer with one or more complications. Of that number recovered 5 - 10% have breathing problems due to Covid-19 . If we take the 5% figure that means that at present 325,000 persons are having new aftercvid-19 breathing problems.

I checked with my GP doctor who is not a lung specialist what he thought about these numbers. He said that he would recommend to breathing problem patients to not fly longer distances. I informed him that airplane cabin altitudes are normally 6 to 8 thousand feet. He said that doubles his feelings. However I did note that shorter flights would end up with cabin altitudes of 3500 to 4000 feet.
He still felt that it was a risk that those recovering should not fly without supplemental Oxygen.
He was not aware of the hoops that carrying O2 bottles onboard has with the FAA, and the limitations of number of O2 bottles.

The point is that for persons who could not or would not drive that may become a big untapped passengers demand to travel on present LD Amtrak routes. and even some shorter various city pairs. . Now if a vaccine does not come into wide use until 100M recover the possible passenger demand could swamp Amtrak.
These numbers are really scary when you look at them this way.
 
My station (FED) has 2 routes serving it - both of which are “temporarily cancelled”!

As bad as it is for me not having trains, you can’t even go from Saratoga to Plattsburgh or Schenectady to Rutland. Neither route is running at all.

Are there trains to Montreal from ALB or NYC ??
 
I don't think so. The border is still closed to non essential travel. Why is there no service to Plattsburgh yet?
 
I don't think so. The border is still closed to non essential travel. Why is there no service to Plattsburgh yet?
I believe the Adirondack is terminating at Albany. That must be an indication that there is insufficient demand past that point. No doubt the college students in Plattsburgh have long since left. That doesn’t help. You would think that Saratoga, at least in August, would be fairly busy. But perhaps there is nowhere to turn the train around.
 
https://www.expressnews.com/busines...ould-stop-planned-Amtrak-cuts-in-15411549.php
Some interesting quotes and nuggets that aren’t as positive as the spin on RPA’s hotline. Right when I start to think RPA is fighting a good fight Matthews is quoted as saying Amtrak getting the 10 billion is “ludicrous”. However you want to interpret that quote it’s not one that should come from Amtraks number one ally and it’s a real head scratcher.
I found the following interesting:

“The vote by the appropriations committee was along party lines, with all the Democrats on the committee supporting the $10 billion Amtrak appropriation with Republicans in opposition.“

However, the legislation then would move to the Senate, where heavy opposition in the Republican-controlled chamber is considered almost certain.

“It’s a pie-in-the sky ask. It’s not going to happen,” said William DeCarlo, national vice president and national legislative director for the Transportation Communications Union.” (Poor choice of words by union official too?)


“A $500 million appropriation might be more agreeable to senators, said Jim Matthews, president and CEO of the Washington, D.C.-based Rail Passengers Association

Matthews said it was “ludicrous” to think that Amtrak would receive the $10 billion in funding, but added that maintaining daily, long-distance train service is essential.“
 
The Adirondack is not running north of Albany at all. As I understand the reason is that with the border closed to all non-essential travel, it can not operate since there is no place to turn the train prior to the border. It will not reopen until late August at the earliest.

The college at Plattsburgh was closed for the summer, but will reopen next month. There is a small airport in Plattsburgh, but other than that the only way to get there is drive.

Although Saratoga Race Track opens today (7/16/20), the entire 8 week run will have no fans in attendance.

And if the Adirondack does resume, the ferry across Lake Champlain between Port Kent and Burlington is not operating. And it may not resume this year. (It only operates until mid-September anyway.)

.............

This is my Post #26,000. Only 2,800+ more posts to go to catch AlanB - I doubt anyone will exceed his post count!
 
The Adirondack is not running north of Albany at all. As I understand the reason is that with the border closed to all non-essential travel, it can not operate since there is no place to turn the train prior to the border. It will not reopen until late August at the earliest.

The college at Plattsburgh was closed for the summer, but will reopen next month. There is a small airport in Plattsburgh, but other than that the only way to get there is drive.

Although Saratoga Race Track opens today (7/16/20), the entire 8 week run will have no fans in attendance.

And if the Adirondack does resume, the ferry across Lake Champlain between Port Kent and Burlington is not operating. And it may not resume this year. (It only operates until mid-September anyway.)

.............

This is my Post #26,000. Only 2,800+ more posts to go to catch AlanB - I doubt anyone will exceed his post count!
Currently the earliest date tickets are being sold for service north of Albany is September 1st for the Ethan Allen but not until November 9th for the Adirondack.
 
The Adirondack is not running north of Albany at all. As I understand the reason is that with the border closed to all non-essential travel, it can not operate since there is no place to turn the train prior to the border. It will not reopen until late August at the earliest.
The primary reason that the Adirondack is not running to Plattsburgh is that NYSDOT does not want to pay for it.

You don't have to be able to turn a train to run it. Cab Cars have existed for a long time eliminating the need for turning a train. And even if a cab car is not available, there are oodles of unused engines sitting around the Amtrak system and even in the NYSDOT pool that could be used as such.
 
Any Amtrak train is not really that hard to turn in an outlying terminal. All of Amtrak's coach seats are able to be turned, and you just need to run the locomotives around the consist. Not overly complex.
 
I checked with my GP doctor who is not a lung specialist what he thought about these numbers. He said that he would recommend to breathing problem patients to not fly longer distances. I informed him that airplane cabin altitudes are normally 6 to 8 thousand feet. He said that doubles his feelings. However I did note that shorter flights would end up with cabin altitudes of 3500 to 4000 feet.
He still felt that it was a risk that those recovering should not fly without supplemental Oxygen.
He was not aware of the hoops that carrying O2 bottles onboard has with the FAA, and the limitations of number of O2 bottles.

I thought that people who need supplemental oxygen use oxygen concentrators on planes, not bottled oxygen. I actually used one once, when I developed acute mountain sickness at a ski resort in Colorado. It was bigger than a CPAP, but I think they now make smaller ones. It worked great and pretty much saved my trip.

This does point out a public benefit for public support of a long-distance rail network -- there is a small, but significant slice of the population that can't fly for medical reasons. Sometimes the medical reasons are such that they can't drive either. Thus, the country needs a basic network of long-distance public surface transportation for such people. I suppose this could be provided by motor coaches on public highways, but it seems that the bus companies have pretty much given up on practical cross-country bus service. Anyway, a minimally acceptable cross-country bus ride for people with serious medical issue would probably require a Vonlane style 23 passenger deluxe motor coach, which isn't really a very efficient way of moving people.
 
Any Amtrak train is not really that hard to turn in an outlying terminal. All of Amtrak's coach seats are able to be turned, and you just need to run the locomotives around the consist. Not overly complex.

Unless you want to run the engine backwards, you'll need to turn it. Cab cars are the best situation, I think, as on the Vermonter.
 
Unless you want to run the engine backwards, you'll need to turn it. Cab cars are the best situation, I think, as on the Vermonter.
As was mentioned, there are currently an abundance of locomotives available so they could run with two. There are also locomotives available with cabs on each end such as the ACS-64, although Amtrak doesn't have any diesel locomotives of that design. As to the Vermonter, it no longer uses a cab car as the Palmer reverse move was eliminated with the move to the Connecticut River Line and there is a wye in St. Albans.
 
Wouldn't a P42 at each end facing away from the train work? Do they have to be adjacent or, like freight engines, can they be remotely controlled even far from the lead engine? Could one provide drive power and the other HEP? If not, what about pulling two deadheads on the first trip, then leaving the lead engines at the destination to be turned around elsewhere before becoming the return lead engines?
 
Wouldn't a P42 at each end facing away from the train work? Do they have to be adjacent or, like freight engines, can they be remotely controlled even far from the lead engine? Could one provide drive power and the other HEP? If not, what about pulling two deadheads on the first trip, then leaving the lead engines at the destination to be turned around elsewhere before becoming the return lead engines?

On that train it would work because all of the Amfleets I believe are equipped with Pass Thru MU
 
Wouldn't a P42 at each end facing away from the train work? Do they have to be adjacent or, like freight engines, can they be remotely controlled even far from the lead engine? Could one provide drive power and the other HEP? If not, what about pulling two deadheads on the first trip, then leaving the lead engines at the destination to be turned around elsewhere before becoming the return lead engines?
Some Midwest corridor routes operate with a locomotive on each end as you describe. It is the standard procedure for the Blue Water and is used sometimes on the Hiawatha instead of one locomotive and one NPCU. When I have been on the Wolverine, depending on the trip it has either had a locomotive on each end or a second locomotive waiting in Pontiac.
 
The Downeaster also occasionally will run with a locomotive on each end when a NPCU is down. The Cascades as well. As long as the cars have a pass thru MU any route could do it. The only cars I'm not sure on and maybe someone at Amtrak could tell me that may or may not have them are the Superliners.
 
The Downeaster also occasionally will run with a locomotive on each end when a NPCU is down. The Cascades as well. As long as the cars have a pass thru MU any route could do it. The only cars I'm not sure on and maybe someone at Amtrak could tell me that may or may not have them are the Superliners.

I'm not sure how they do it, but the Surfliners run with Cab-Control and Superliner coaches in the consist.
 
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