Set-out Sleepers

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Bill Haithcoat

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There is a current post about the Twilight Shoreliner. In this post it has come up that that train used to have a set-out sleeper from NYC to WAS. I think most know what a set-out sleeper is. But for those who do not,I can

illustrate it best from my first contact with them in childhood.

I am a self-taught railfan---I did not really have anybody to explain things to me.I had to figure things out for myself..

One morning we were at one of the stations in Chattanooga, TN., putting my sister on the 7.40 a.m. to BHM. I noticed a lone pullman sitting there by itself....apparenty idle. I thought no more about it. Then, about 8.00, I guess, a most unusual thing happened---people starting coming out of that one single "abandoned "car ...like ants crawling out of an anthill! What on earth were they doing in that car, going nowhere? Seems they had been on a train from Memphis to WAS which arrived Chatta at 3.35 a.m. That sleeper was switched out at 3.35, while the rest of the train left at 4 to go on to WAS. People to Chatta could occupy that car anytime from 3.35 a.m. till 8.

Same in reverse. The train arrived from WAS about midnight but people in the CHatta-MEM sleeper could board any time from 9.30 to departure,, present their tickets, sleep, read, do whatever and completely disregard the arrival of their actual train.

Believe me, set-out sleepers used to be all across the country---very numerous. I can even think of one example of a set-out coach. It was an Omaha to LA car on the CHI to LA "City of Los Angeles".

I only rode one set-out sleeper; that was a MEM to CHI car on a NO to CHI train.

A neat concept---very convenient for people at intermediate points where the schedule was not as convenient as at the end points. Maybe someday there will be enough passenger business in this country to bring back the concept. I do not remember when the NY- WAS sleeper was dropped.

Anybody here ever been on a set-out sleeper and would like to tell us? Would love to hear.
 
I rode a set-out sleeper on the Night Owl from New York Penn station to Washington D.C. in the 80's. It was called the executive sleeper. Passenger could board from 9 p.m until departure at 2:50 in the morning.

On my trip, I rode into New York Grand Centrl on the Adirondack, and caught a cab to Penn station. I remember being amused during the cab ride. This guy had his hand on the horn, and was blasting BEFORE the light turned green. Needless to say, it was a fast ride to Penn. At Penn station, I checked with Amtrak informtion and was directed to the sleeper which was parked on a track all the way to one side of the station. I was the only one to board at the moment, and the porter was there to let me on. I noticed that he had a sawed off broomstick to prevent uninviteds from entering the car. I situated myself in a roomette, and then stepped back out to get a hamburger and fries. It was kind of neat sitting in my room, eating and watching the scene at Penn Station. After Dinner, I put the bed down, listened to a new AC/DC tape that I bought earlier in the trip. Drifted off to sleep, and barely noticed the switching move that placed my car on the back of the Nigh Owl. I got off in Washington DC rested and ready for a full day.
 
Wow, sounds like a neat experience judging by what Steve said. If they ever bring it back to the Shoreliner, I'd love to try it.
 
Viewliner, yes what Steve says is so exactly right.....it is one of railroading's neatest little secrets and little pleasures. The way he describes it...sitting there, perhaps already in your pajamas, with your own little window on the world of Penn Station(or anywhere else) out your window.

It also means if your train is hours late, it makes no difference to you....a "set-out" sleeper is never boarded late, just because the train itself is late.

Of course the train Steve is talking about is the same as todays Twilight Shoreliner, more or less.And I do regret so never riding it myself. Penn Station would be a perfect place to experience it just as you did, Steve.
 
Oh yes, there is the flip side of set-out sleepers also. The arriving side.

Picture your train arriving at your destination about 3 or 4 or 5 a.m. what ever, picture yourself being awakened, realizing this is your stop.....realizing it is cold and rainy outside....and just turning back over , saying to heck with it,and going back to sleep. Not having to get up until 8 or 9 o'clock, whatever. That, too, is fun!
 
This idea would be great on some services that only have service in the dead of night. Like SAS on the Sunset's run, points along the Cardinal's journey etc.
 
Bill Haithcoat said:
Picture your train arriving at your destination about 3 or 4 or 5 a.m. what ever, picture yourself  being awakened, realizing this is your stop.....realizing it is cold and rainy outside....and just turning back over , saying to heck with it,and going back to sleep. Not having to get up until 8 or 9 o'clock, whatever. That, too, is fun!
Not that this necessarily applies to the Twilight, but given that NYP tracks are used at capacity in the morning rush hour, would this even be possible today?
 
ElNew Branch, I don't know NYP's situation as intimately as you do, but I sort of suspect they could find room for it. One, it has not been that long since the NYC-WAS set out sleeper did exist, and ,Two, years past, when there were more trains all over the country, stations found room for many such cars. I have no idea how many set out sleepers there may have been in NYP at one time in the past. Of course NYP may not have as many tracks as it used to....I do not remember about that..

Battalion, you have the right idea with the examples you give......yes those would be good places for set-out sleepers. For that matter, the Silver Meteor could use one at Washington,DC or even at Richmond. Just day-dreaming....hope rail travel swells up to that point in the future when such things would again be feasible.
 
Bill Haithcoat said:
Battalion, you have the right idea with the examples you give......yes those would be good places for set-out sleepers. For that matter, the Silver Meteor could use one at Washington,DC or even at Richmond. Just day-dreaming....hope rail travel swells up to that point in the future when such things would again be feasible.
I have to agree with that D.C. could use that Set-Out sleeper, I think its more feasable than Richmond, where there is less capacity and Amtrak doesn't own the tracks.
 
I've ridden the Executive Sleeper into and out of New York Penn Station -- both as a Heritage sleeper and as a Viewliner sleeper. When the car was a Heritage 10/6, you weren't able to use the toilet at all while the car was parked in Penn Station. (You had to go up into the station for that.) Of course, when the service was operated with a Viewliner car that was usually no problem -- so long as the power cables were hooked up (see below).

Also, the switch crew at NYP seemed to have a sick sense of humor when it came to handling that car. They often would leave the auxiliary power lines detached for hours after the car was parked on the northbound service . You'd sweat or freeze to death (depending on the season) in your little metal box while the yard crew j**rked off somewhere. When they'd show up with the switcher to add or remove the car from the Night Owl they seemed to intentionally bang the car around as much as possible -- just to make sure anyone on board was awake.

I think the set-out NYP-WAS sleeper is a good idea whose success depends on a decent yard crew who gives a hoot about passenger comfort and service!!
 
The reason I brought it up is that about a month ago The Star Ledger had an interesting article about how rush hour track usage is at capacity at NYP, and how it's a constant chess match in the control room over there.

It was kind of foremost in my mind as I read this thread. The more I think about it, Amtrak could probably find the room -- the congestion is more likely NJTransit's problem.

Great site, everyone. (I'm a long-time lurker, first-time poster)
 
ELNewBranch said:
The reason I brought it up is that about a month ago The Star Ledger had an interesting article about how rush hour track usage is at capacity at NYP, and how it's a constant chess match in the control room over there.It was kind of foremost in my mind as I read this thread. The more I think about it, Amtrak could probably find the room -- the congestion is more likely NJTransit's problem.

Great site, everyone. (I'm a long-time lurker, first-time poster)
EL,

Welcome to our forum, we're glad to have you as a member. :)

As for the topic at hand, setout sleepers, I strongly suspect that room could be found. Since the Twilight arrives in the middle of the night, in both directions the station wouldn't be busy at all. In fact at that hour, the Twilight is probably just about the only thing moving. That makes it very easy to cut off and/or add a sleeper to the consist.

As for parking the setout car till the appropriate times for boarding or detraining, the easy solution is to set the car out to either track 1, 2, 3, or 4. These 4 tracks are used exclusively by New Jersey Transit and are not thru tracks at Penn. So any NJT train pulling into one of those tracks at say 7:00 AM in the morning must turn on that track. They can't pull out to Sunnyside yard.

So this solves the problem of blocking a track during the day, if you place the setout at the bumper end of one of those tracks.
 
Some interesting points made in the last few posts. I had not even thought about passengers in the heritage car having to go upstairs to go to the restroom. That blows the hell out of the whole thing. Nor did I realize that the yard crews knocked and banged the car around, and screwed with the temperature.. No wonder the car had very little business.I have read that some nights it was empty, toward the last.Too bad not everybody's experience was as good as that of Steve 4031.

Too bad, because it is a good idea and as pointed out it depends on the yard crew. The whole point is for a sleeping car passengers to rest, sleep, read, relax, go to the toilet, etc without any bother...and with correct temperature controls.

I was about 8 or 9 years old(about 1953 or 54) when I witnessed my first set-out sleeper, as described in the opening post. At that time toilets flushed out onto the tracks and nobody thought anything about it.Train restrooms had signs which said, "Do not flush while train is in station", but I am SURE that was ignored as to to set-out passengers.

Glad that has changed.

Anyway, there would have been many set-out sleeprs in NYC in the past so there must have been adequate bumper posts, etc to find room for them. They may have even had some of them lined up on the same track to be shuffled onto their train as the time came.
 
Just to go along with my prior post, about tracks 1 - 4 being the place to park a setout sleeper, below is a track map of Penn Station. Thanks go to the Access To The Regions Core website for this map. You can read more about their hopes and dreams for trains in NY at their website located here.

Sorry that the image is a little large, but I can't alter it. Therefore you will have to scroll the page left and right to see everything. Normally I would have simply linked to the map, but I felt that it would be easier for everyone to read my descriptions with the map right in front of them.

penn_sta.gif


Now just to add a few things to help everyone better understand the above map. The left side of the map is 10th Avenue and the west side of Penn. The right side of the map is 7th Avenue and the east side of Penn. The top of the map is north.

The two straight dotted lines that run beyond 10th Ave heading west, represent the tracks leading west to the Hudson River tunnels. Directly above them are 4 tracks numbered 1B - 4B. These tracks are the yard leads to the LIRR's West End Yard, located between 11th & 12th Aves.

Right below the Hudson River tracks, is another dotted curved line that extends west of 10th Ave. This line represents the tunnel for the Empire Corridor Connector that leads to the tracks headed to Albany, NY.

Between 9th & 10th Aves you are largely out in the open, which is why you see daylight on a train headed to NJ or coming from NJ. The Farley Post office, which is supposed to be transformed into the new Penn Station, sits in between 8th & 9th Aves.

On the other side of the map just past 7th Ave, you have the four tracks that lead under the East River to Queens. They are numbered Line 1 - 4. It should be noted however, that while this map does not show it, the tracks do not arrive in Queens in the same order that they leave Penn.

There is a flyover that brings Line 2 next to the Line 4 track and brings Line 3 next to Line 1. This helps to cut down on the number of crossover moves that need to be made by trains entering and leaving Penn. As a general rule, except during rush hour or construction, all Amtrak trains from Boston enter Penn on Line 2. This put them closest to the middle tracks, which is where most Amtrak trains platform. All LIRR trains enter Penn from Line 4, which puts them on the highest numbered tracks at the top of the map.

Again assuming that it's not rush hour or that there is construction; all Amtrak trains to Boston tend to leave Penn on Line 1. While all LIRR trains tend to leave Penn on Line 3. Anyone with a copy of the March issue of Trains Magazine can flip to page 49 to see a track diagram at the bottom of the page, which shows the flyover.

Whenever there is construction and of course during rush hour, then all bets are off and trains can be seen entering or leaving on any Line available. I myself have popped up in Queens on an Acela Express to Boston on Line 3. Additionally I've seen an Acela Express headed to Sunnyside yard pop up on Line 4, which I found really odd as that's typically an inbound track and not an outbound track.
 
Well here's something to now consider. With the rescheduling and rebranding of what is now the Twilight Shoreliner, the time for set-out sleepers in New York may be returning. Consider this:

* Both the northbound and southbound trains will be arriving in and departing from New York City between 2:15 AM and 3:15 AM, not a popular hour to be out and about. It's certainly not a popular time if one is paying for a sleeper and has to board or detrain at that hour.

* Allowing one to board a set-out sleeper for Washington at, say, 10 PM (the same time the regular trains depart from their endpoint cities) would allow potentially 9 hours of sleep for somebody headed to Washington.

* And, I propose a similar set-out sleeper for New York-Boston passengers as well, something the old Night Owl did not have. Since as was mentioned, there should be plenty of room on the stub-ended tracks at Penn Station, there could be two such sleepers - one for Washington and one for Boston.

* Likewise, upon arrival from both Boston and Washington, each train should put off a New York sleeper at Penn Station, which would be occupied until, say, 8 AM. Again this would allow people to sleep, or prepare for that 9 AM meeting in their compartment.

* So under this plan, Train #66 would remove one sleeper from Washington, uncoupling it from the rear of a through WAS-BOS sleeper. That sleeper would remain on one of the stub tracks until 8 AM. Before #66 departs for Boston, the sleeper that had been sitting since the evening in New York would be added to the train, where the other sleeper had been. The same would happen in reverse for #67. This would result in a lot of switching, but it would be worth it.

As for parking the setout car till the appropriate times for boarding or detraining, the easy solution is to set the car out to either track 1, 2, 3, or 4. These 4 tracks are used exclusively by New Jersey Transit and are not thru tracks at Penn. So any NJT train pulling into one of those tracks at say 7:00 AM in the morning must turn on that track. They can't pull out to Sunnyside yard.
One caveat to this idea is that with the new NJT concourse, the eastern end of the platforms, the stub end, is where the main intended access is for NJT passengers. Keeping a sleeper at the bumper all day means longer walks for most passengers using the NJT concourse, and it might also result in shorter NJT trains since with the Viewliner taking up at least one car length of the platform, the western end of the train might not be able to platform.
 
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