Sheldon Silver and Moynihan Station

[Nngo11]

In the past two weeks on the subway, I've seen people reading tabloids with headlines along the lines of "Silver to axe Moynihan Station." I haven't been able to any stories about this on the internet, though, except one rather flimsy and unreliable one in the New York Sun. Has anything happened recently or is it just the tabloids just making up a story in a slow-news period?

 

[George Harris]

Who is Sheldon Silver?

 

[AlanB]

There were a few stories on this about a month ago or so, so some of them have probably dropped off the radar screens by now.

The bottom line last I heard was that Sheldon Silver was opposing the project, largely because he's under pressure from the Dolan family who own Madison Square Garden. They want the deal to be stalled until a larger deal that includes building a new MSG can be approved. They of course want this, because if they can't get included in this deal, then they will either have to spend millions on renovating the current MSG or building a new one with thier own monies. If they can get into the Moynihan deal, then they'll get some really nice tax breaks and at least part of the new arena will end up getting built with public money, instead of their money.

One story on this from the NY Observer is still available here.

And another from NY Metro can be found here.

Of course this project also has nothing to do with Amtrak anymore, even if it does go ahead. If this ever happens, Moynihan will only serve New Jersey Transit. And that fact IMHO, means that this project really should be cancelled. NJT can't afford to run yet another NY station, this will make 3 once The Tunnel is built. Moynihan is too far away from the 7th Ave Subway and the 6th Ave Subway for commuters and commuters don't really hang around the station for very long anyhow, so they certainly don't need a huge luxurious station.

Moynihan made sense for Amtrak customers who spend longer times waiting for trains, even though it didn't make sense for Amtrak to pay rent over there when they have the current station rent free. But it does not make sense for NJT.

 

[AlanB]

Who is Sheldon Silver?

He's the powerful NY State Assembly Speaker and the State representative for the district that includes the Farley/Penn Station area.

 

[Nngo11]

Who is Sheldon Silver?

He more or less is the NY State legislature. If he wants something through the legislature, it goes through.

Why is Amtrak's rent free at Penn Station? Just because they own it? I imagine that if they were to move to Moynihan Station (which, of course, they say won't) they could make up most of the cost of renting it from whomever they'd have to rent it from by bringing in some kind of revenue from the current Penn. Station property. But even if building this new station makes no financial sense, I think it has a lot of support from voters. Everyone knows Penn. Station is disgusting (the Amtrak and NJT part are passable but the LIRR terminal is truly execrable).

 

[Nngo11]

There were a few stories on this about a month ago or so, so some of them have probably dropped off the radar screens by now.
The bottom line last I heard was that Sheldon Silver was opposing the project, largely because he's under pressure from the Dolan family who own Madison Square Garden. They want the deal to be stalled until a larger deal that includes building a new MSG can be approved. They of course want this, because if they can't get included in this deal, then they will either have to spend millions on renovating the current MSG or building a new one with thier own monies. If they can get into the Moynihan deal, then they'll get some really nice tax breaks and at least part of the new arena will end up getting built with public money, instead of their money.

One story on this from the NY Observer is still available here.

And another from NY Metro can be found here.

Of course this project also has nothing to do with Amtrak anymore, even if it does go ahead. If this ever happens, Moynihan will only serve New Jersey Transit. And that fact IMHO, means that this project really should be cancelled. NJT can't afford to run yet another NY station, this will make 3 once The Tunnel is built. Moynihan is too far away from the 7th Ave Subway and the 6th Ave Subway for commuters and commuters don't really hang around the station for very long anyhow, so they certainly don't need a huge luxurious station.

Moynihan made sense for Amtrak customers who spend longer times waiting for trains, even though it didn't make sense for Amtrak to pay rent over there when they have the current station rent free. But it does not make sense for NJT.

Oh and thanks for this information AlanB.

 

[AlanB]

Why is Amtrak's rent free at Penn Station? Just because they own it? I imagine that if they were to move to Moynihan Station (which, of course, they say won't) they could make up most of the cost of renting it from whomever they'd have to rent it from by bringing in some kind of revenue from the current Penn. Station property. But even if building this new station makes no financial sense, I think it has a lot of support from voters.

Exactly, since Amtrak owns Penn, they pay no rent. Now I suppose that were NJT to expand their area, and if more retail space was put in, that Amtrak might be able to make for the rent that they would have to pay. However it might be tough to rent out that additional space considering the additonal retail space planned for Moynihan.

As for support from the voters, I think that's faded a bit since this plan was originally conceived. I also believe that too many voters don't realize that Amtrak will not occupy Moynihan. I think that support would evaporate considerably if everyone knew that NJT was taking over that area.

Everyone knows Penn. Station is disgusting (the Amtrak and NJT part are passable but the LIRR terminal is truly execrable).

I have to ask in all seriousness, when was the last time you were at Penn? The NJT area is actually quite nice now with it's Italian pink marble and bright lighting, even though I'll tell you that I think that NJT wasted some money on that marble. And the LIRR area has seen considerable improvements, from the new 34th St. entrance, to new solari boards, and other improvements. The waiting room could still use some work, but there have been considerable improvements.

And the LIRR won't be improved by NJT moving to Moynihan and neither will Amtrak. NJT on the other hand just opened its new, expensive concourse less than 5 years ago if I recall. Now they want a new station at 34th St. under Macy's for The Tunnel, and Moynihan too! That's a waste of money IMHO and that would be on top of the wad that they blew on the new 7th Ave concourse in Penn. The 34th St station is a must, since the plan is not to build a lower level for Penn.

 

[Nngo11]

Why is Amtrak's rent free at Penn Station? Just because they own it? I imagine that if they were to move to Moynihan Station (which, of course, they say won't) they could make up most of the cost of renting it from whomever they'd have to rent it from by bringing in some kind of revenue from the current Penn. Station property. But even if building this new station makes no financial sense, I think it has a lot of support from voters.

Exactly, since Amtrak owns Penn, they pay no rent. Now I suppose that were NJT to expand their area, and if more retail space was put in, that Amtrak might be able to make for the rent that they would have to pay. However it might be tough to rent out that additional space considering the additonal retail space planned for Moynihan.

As for support from the voters, I think that's faded a bit since this plan was originally conceived. I also believe that too many voters don't realize that Amtrak will not occupy Moynihan. I think that support would evaporate considerably if everyone knew that NJT was taking over that area.

Everyone knows Penn. Station is disgusting (the Amtrak and NJT part are passable but the LIRR terminal is truly execrable).

I have to ask in all seriousness, when was the last time you were at Penn? The NJT area is actually quite nice now with it's Italian pink marble and bright lighting, even though I'll tell you that I think that NJT wasted some money on that marble. And the LIRR area has seen considerable improvements, from the new 34th St. entrance, to new solari boards, and other improvements. The waiting room could still use some work, but there have been considerable improvements.

And the LIRR won't be improved by NJT moving to Moynihan and neither will Amtrak. NJT on the other hand just opened its new, expensive concourse less than 5 years ago if I recall. Now they want a new station at 34th St. under Macy's for The Tunnel, and Moynihan too! That's a waste of money IMHO and that would be on top of the wad that they blew on the new 7th Ave concourse in Penn. The 34th St station is a must, since the plan is not to build a lower level for Penn.

Well, the last time I was in Penn. Station was yesterday. I do agree with you that the Amtrak and, particularly, the NJT parts are okay, the LIRR part is disgusting and overcrowded. If NJT were to use two new stations, I'd assume that LIRR could move use parts of the station that NJT vacated? Or is that not in the works? LIRR will also eventually have less volume at Penn. if/when they run into GCT as well I suppose.

 

[Nngo11]

"One entered the city like a god, now one scampers in like a rat."

Someone said this once. I'm not sure who. In any case, I agree and I think it applies to even the newly-renovated NJT part of the terminal. Whether or not it is worth spending money setting this right is an entirely different matter. I apologize for bring up this talked-to-death subject; originally I had raised it in much narrower context! Thanks everyone for discussing it.

 

[Guest]

The Mohnihan station was nothing more than a tax payer funded shopping mall.

First the building is two blocks outside mainstream traffic.

Any commuter heading for their train, no matter if its Amtrak, Lirr or NJT would still enter the old entrances.

The entire 900 milion $$$ plan had no improvements to platform area and no improvements to anything train related.

It is nothing more than a new tent over same old hole.

I for one am glad this financial boondoggle was stopped.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Sorry last post was mine , forgot to log in

 

[AlanB]

Well, the last time I was in Penn. Station was yesterday. I do agree with you that the Amtrak and, particularly, the NJT parts are okay, the LIRR part is disgusting and overcrowded. If NJT were to use two new stations, I'd assume that LIRR could move use parts of the station that NJT vacated? Or is that not in the works? LIRR will also eventually have less volume at Penn. if/when they run into GCT as well I suppose.

Ok, I just wanted to be sure because the way you were talking about the station, especially NJT had me wondering. No insult intended.

As for your question, at least in its present form, the NJT plan does not have them vacating any of the current space in Penn. And I rather doubt that the vast majority of commuters will allow them to vacate and of the current space, since again most commuters coming from the subways at 6th & 7th Aves aren't going to want to walk any further just to have a nicer station to stand in for the average 15 minutes or so that they wait for their trains.

That was one of the major reasons that the LIRR passed on Moynihan when it was offered to them, after Amtrak pulled out. Cost of course was another factor, but that walk is a big issue. And the LIRR is actually better suited to use Moynihan than is NJT. All the platforms that the LIRR uses actually extend under Moynihan right now, without any modifications needed. Whereas for NJT, 3 platforms that they routinely use will have to be extended in order to be serviced from Moynihan.

Now mind you those three platforms would be extended no matter what anyhow, even without Moynihan ever opening, because of the track realignments required for The Tunnel.

IMHO, one of the bigger reasons that NJT has agreed to move into Moynihan, is simply because former Amtrak President George Warrington who helped to put together the original deal while at Amtrak, now runs NJT and he sees this as his legacy.

 

[AlanB]

I apologize for bring up this talked-to-death subject; originally I had raised it in much narrower context! Thanks everyone for discussing it.

No need to apologize, this is precisely why this board is here, to discuss trains and issues related to them.

 

[battalion51]

That to me seems to have some truth to it. I've been through Penn Station a few times, and am just about as unimpressed each time. One of the worst things about the station has got to be the sheer heat in the platform areas, hotter than some of our hottest days here in South Florida. The Amtrak waiting area is always crowded, and I was get a little claustrophobic because of the number of people, the low ceilings and lack of Natural light. The station as a whole is also very confusing unless you know where you're going, I've slowly started to figure it out, but everytime I detrain I somehow end up on the LIRR concourse and having to walk my way all the back to the Amtrak concourse, which after the third or fourth trip I've found an "easy" way to get there.

I do feel that if the current Penn Station were in true need of replacement that Moynihan station would be a true blessing. Initial plans call for natural light, large open concourses and waiting areas, retail outlets, etc. What made a believer out of me with this project is the parallels between it and Union Station in Washington. WUS has made a name for itself by not only being home to MARC, VRE, and Amtrak, but by attracting enough retailers, that it's a destination for locals and tourists to be able to dine and shop. The problem is that in Amtrak's financial state they cannot afford to move to such a destination in NYC. Why oh why did they have to tear down the Original Penn?

 

[AlanB]

The Mohnihan station was nothing more than a tax payer funded shopping mall.First the building is two blocks outside mainstream traffic.

Any commuter heading for their train, no matter if its Amtrak, Lirr or NJT would still enter the old entrances.

The entire 900 milion $$$ plan had no improvements to platform area and no improvements to anything train related.

It is nothing more than a new tent over same old hole.

I for one am glad this financial boondoggle was stopped.

Sadly this idea is far from dead, especially since almost all of the $900M funding is already in place. I strongly suspect that one of two things will happen. One, public pressure on Sheldon will overwhelm his catering to the Dolan family wishes and he'll have to approve the project or get voted out. Two, the plan that the Dolan's want will get finished and approved. But either way, I for one don't believe that this project is dead.

I also disagree that this was a terrible idea for Amtrak. I do think that it makes no sense for NJT or the LIRR, for them it is a waste of money. But for Amtrak, many people especially long distance riders, would use the new station. I agree that those riding the corridor might be less inclined to walk over to Moynihan however.

Of course if the Dolan's are sucessful in getting their idea pushed through, then in theory if the money could be found, Amtrak could actually improve the existing station since the Garden would be gone.

 

[tp49]

Who is Sheldon Silver?

He more or less is the NY State legislature. If he wants something through the legislature, it goes through.

Don't tell that to Joe Bruno.

 

[National Limited]

What is The Tunnel and if there were to be a new MSG would it be in a different location? Would that mean that perhaps Penn Station could be reconfigured in a way to make it more inviting?

 

[tp49]

What is The Tunnel and if there were to be a new MSG would it be in a different location? Would that mean that perhaps Penn Station could be reconfigured in a way to make it more inviting?

If there were to be a new MSG the rumor is that it would be located on the 9th Avenue side of the Postal Service property just west of the Farley Building.

 

[AlanB]

What is The Tunnel and if there were to be a new MSG would it be in a different location? Would that mean that perhaps Penn Station could be reconfigured in a way to make it more inviting?

If there were to be a new MSG the rumor is that it would be located on the 9th Avenue side of the Postal Service property just west of the Farley Building.

That's correct and it's more than just a rumor. I understand that plans are already being drawn up for that, which is why the Dolan family wants to delay Moynihan, so that they can hitch a ride on that deal and gain some tax breaks, funding help, and such. And yes, if MSG were to move, then in theory a "new" Penn Station could be built. The problem is where would the funding come from, unless they don't build Moynihan and just let the Dolan's move MSG over on their own. And even then, some consideration would most likely need to be made to still build something over Penn, otherwise all that air space would be wasted. Yes, it could be built in such a way to support and allow natural lighting in a revitalized Penn, but I don't see us ever getting back something that comes close to what was torn down years ago.

As for National's second question, "The Tunnel" is the current working name for a project that will build a new two track rail tunnel under the Hudson River between NY and NJ. This will allow NJT to dramatically increase service into NY as well as to allow better recovery from a train breaking down. That plan will see a new tunnel just south of the existing tunnels, linking up on the NJ side just east of Secaucus Junction. On the Manhattan side, the tunnel with its two tracks will connect to the existing Penn, with the west end of the tracks at Penn being reconfigured to support this. Additionally, since Penn can't handle the extra volume, the two track tunnel will continue slightly north of the exisiting Penn station to a new station built under 34th Street right near Macy's.

 

[Nngo11]

What is The Tunnel and if there were to be a new MSG would it be in a different location? Would that mean that perhaps Penn Station could be reconfigured in a way to make it more inviting?

THE Tunnel = Trans Hudson Express Tunnel, a double-track (I believe) tunnel that New Jersey Transit wants and, apparently, will get under the Hudson river to add to the two original single-track tunnels currently in place. This way they will be able to route most of their services that currently terminate at Hoboken right into Manhattan.

I've always wondered if PATH frequency reductions were part of this plan. I'm sure someone on this forum knows.

 

[AlanB]

I've always wondered if PATH frequency reductions were part of this plan. I'm sure someone on this forum knows.

I've not heard of any planned reductions in service and NJT doesn't plan to stop serving Hoboken entirely, in large part because of those who ride PATH into lower Manhattan. I would expect some reduction in NJT service to Hoboken, but it won't go away either. Part of The Tunnel plan is to allow for increased NJT service on the existing lines, some of which is currently needed, some of which will be needed in the future.

So under no circumstances will NJT ever be able to route all of its trains into NY and therefore Hoboken will remain viable for that reason and the aforementioned connection to the WTC area.

Now PATH may cut back some service on its 33 St line, but I'm not sure that they will cut back all that much. Especially thanks to the ever increasing ridership on NJT's Newark LRT service and the Hudson/Bergen LRT service.

And just in case anyone wasn't aware, NJT does not control PATH and its schedules. PATH is owned and operated by the Port Authority of NY & NJ, so NJT has no say in PATH service levels and is not considered part of the plan for The Tunnel. This despite the fact that the Port Authority is actually helping to fund The Tunnel project.

 

[blueman271]

Is NJT going to electrify the tunnel with both third rail and catenery, or just catenery? I ask because it would be nice to have one seat service to the city on the RVL.

 

[AlanB]

Is NJT going to electrify the tunnel with both third rail and catenery, or just catenery? I ask because it would be nice to have one seat service to the city on the RVL.

At present I believe that the plan only calls for catenary in the new tunnel. This is due in part that Amtrak will have to use this tunnel during work on the existing tunnels, or in the event of a train lying down in the existing tunnels. Additionally I've heard that Amtrak for some reason will not allow third rails to be installed on the existing trackage in NJ.

However NJT is working with a builders on designin a dual-mode engine that will run off of either a diesel or a pantograph. This will allow some RVT trains to run into NY, as well as some trains off of the Bergen and Main lines, along with some trains off of the MOM line when that gets completed.

 

[tourlink99]

How about Amtrak moving to Grand Central Terminal? Would the cost of additional trackage be greater then the cost of a new station. Would those new tracks if needed be even possible to build in Manhattan?

 

[AlanB]

How about Amtrak moving to Grand Central Terminal? Would the cost of additional trackage be greater then the cost of a new station. Would those new tracks if needed be even possible to build in Manhattan?

Why would Amtrak want to move back to GCT? They moved out of GCT over 10 years ago now I believe and consolodated things at Penn, making transfers between services easier. I can't think of any logical reason for them to want to split things back up now.

On the other hand, having connecting tracks between GCT and Penn to allow NJT and Metro North to serve both stations would make considerable sense. However, that project is way low on everyone's lists in part because of costs, in part because of the logistics of building such a connector, and finally because that would require both agencies to work out agreements and possibly even cross ticketing.